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	<title>
	Comments on: Sen. Clinton&#8217;s Untimely Proposal	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:45:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: nofixedabode		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13434</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nofixedabode]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13434</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As I survivor of the 70&#039;s, I can&#039;t recall that the 55 mph speed limit ever reduced the price at the pump. But it says something about Hillary that the best she can offer is Nixon era solutions!
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I survivor of the 70&#8217;s, I can&#8217;t recall that the 55 mph speed limit ever reduced the price at the pump. But it says something about Hillary that the best she can offer is Nixon era solutions!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jimmy Antley		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13433</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jimmy Antley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13433</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Good comments, but I&#039;d like to add, in response to Mr. L.:

People don&#039;t drive above the speed limit just to save time.  It does not feel good going 55 mph on a road in which you feel safe at 80 mph.  Most of the time, I feel the need for speed even if I&#039;m running early and will have to sit at the destination for a half hour waiting; traffic tickets are a bit of a disincentive, but what&#039;s the chances of that happening.

Maybe some people feel good about saving their gas money, and that feeling overpowers the other feeling of poking along the road like at 55 mph like an idiot, but I really can&#039;t relate.

I save lots of gas money by not having a commute (I&#039;m probably driving only 6000 miles annually.)  But when I get on the road I&#039;ve just gotta move.  To quote Sammy Hagar, &quot;I can&#039;t drive fifty-five!&quot;, and Hillary can just eat my dust...
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comments, but I&#8217;d like to add, in response to Mr. L.:</p>
<p>People don&#8217;t drive above the speed limit just to save time.  It does not feel good going 55 mph on a road in which you feel safe at 80 mph.  Most of the time, I feel the need for speed even if I&#8217;m running early and will have to sit at the destination for a half hour waiting; traffic tickets are a bit of a disincentive, but what&#8217;s the chances of that happening.</p>
<p>Maybe some people feel good about saving their gas money, and that feeling overpowers the other feeling of poking along the road like at 55 mph like an idiot, but I really can&#8217;t relate.</p>
<p>I save lots of gas money by not having a commute (I&#8217;m probably driving only 6000 miles annually.)  But when I get on the road I&#8217;ve just gotta move.  To quote Sammy Hagar, &#8220;I can&#8217;t drive fifty-five!&#8221;, and Hillary can just eat my dust&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mr L		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13432</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 03:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13432</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;What I said was that no one will pay you for the time that is lost, not that the time itself is worthless. As such, the argument about specific value lost (particularly when calculated to the penny per hour) is...less than convincing.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, not quite. Even though you aren&#039;t paid, that extra driving time has an easily determinable monetary value. Just look at what people are willing to do to reduce the time of their commute -- risk speeding tickets, pay hefty tolls on the expressways, live closer to the office, etc. -- and you can get a pretty good idea of the &#039;real&#039; cost.

To give an example, if I pay $5 on the expressway to shave a half hour off my commute, then my time&#039;s worth at dead minimum $10/hr.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What I said was that no one will pay you for the time that is lost, not that the time itself is worthless. As such, the argument about specific value lost (particularly when calculated to the penny per hour) is&#8230;less than convincing.</i></p>
<p>Well, not quite. Even though you aren&#8217;t paid, that extra driving time has an easily determinable monetary value. Just look at what people are willing to do to reduce the time of their commute &#8212; risk speeding tickets, pay hefty tolls on the expressways, live closer to the office, etc. &#8212; and you can get a pretty good idea of the &#8216;real&#8217; cost.</p>
<p>To give an example, if I pay $5 on the expressway to shave a half hour off my commute, then my time&#8217;s worth at dead minimum $10/hr.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MightyWaldo		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13431</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MightyWaldo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13431</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So you agree that your time with your family is worth $16/hour, J.T.?  Why not some other arbitrary number, like $100/hour, in which case the reduction to 55 mph would cost you serious money?  Of course, if your time with your family is worth $100/hour to you and work only pays you $16/hour, then, by the argument used in this posting, you are losing money every hour you work, right?&lt;p&gt;
What I said was that no one will pay you for the time that is lost, not that the time itself is worthless.  As such, the argument about specific value lost (particularly when calculated to the penny per hour) is...less than convincing.&lt;p&gt;
I then tried to point out better justification for &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; changing the speed limit: it&#039;s completely unnecessary.  You can already choose to drive at the lower speed.&lt;p&gt;
By the way, there is one change that apparently results in an immediate 12% drop in traffic accidents every year: the Fall time change. (The Spring time change has the exact opposite effect.)  If we are looking to reduce traffic accidents, let&#039;s just &quot;fall back&quot; every day.  By Congressional calculation methods, that&#039;s be (12%*365 =) almost a 4400% reduction in accidents!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you agree that your time with your family is worth $16/hour, J.T.?  Why not some other arbitrary number, like $100/hour, in which case the reduction to 55 mph would cost you serious money?  Of course, if your time with your family is worth $100/hour to you and work only pays you $16/hour, then, by the argument used in this posting, you are losing money every hour you work, right?</p>
<p>
What I said was that no one will pay you for the time that is lost, not that the time itself is worthless.  As such, the argument about specific value lost (particularly when calculated to the penny per hour) is&#8230;less than convincing.</p>
<p>
I then tried to point out better justification for <i>not</i> changing the speed limit: it&#8217;s completely unnecessary.  You can already choose to drive at the lower speed.</p>
<p>
By the way, there is one change that apparently results in an immediate 12% drop in traffic accidents every year: the Fall time change. (The Spring time change has the exact opposite effect.)  If we are looking to reduce traffic accidents, let&#8217;s just &#8220;fall back&#8221; every day.  By Congressional calculation methods, that&#8217;s be (12%*365 =) almost a 4400% reduction in accidents!</p>
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		<title>
		By: J.T. Wenting		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13430</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.T. Wenting]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13430</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In other words Waldo, you value a person&#039;s time with his family to be worth nothing at all?

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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In other words Waldo, you value a person&#8217;s time with his family to be worth nothing at all?</p>
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		<title>
		By: MightyWaldo		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13429</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MightyWaldo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13429</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This sort of argument is often thrown around to justify time-saving techniques (or lambast time-wasting ones).  For your argument to hold up, however, it is not enough to specify hourly wages; the person in question must actually be &lt;i&gt;able&lt;/i&gt; to earn the money.  In other words, assuming that the person left for work at the same time in both cases, and returned home at the same time, the extra 22 minutes per hour you specify might enable that person to earn the extra $6.  If they are paid from 8 to 5, however, they earn exactly $0 if they show up a little early or leave a little late.&lt;p&gt;
Now, the time you (or this special person) spend on all of the non-commute trips, such as the drive to gramma&#039;s house, would not have the earning power you note (assuming that you are already working the hours you can for the wages you can pull down), so the argument becomes less powerful.  Note, of course, that you already receive recompense for any time spent driving on the job.  And, of course, those poor fools like me who work for a set salary don&#039;t have the option of earning additional money by working more hours.&lt;p&gt;
You could argue that your hourly wage indicates the value that &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; put on your time, in which case the argument (somewhat) holds water.  Instead, however, you could argue that the speed limit is the (supposed) maximium, unless you are in California, in which case it appears to be a minimum.  Thus, those people who want to save fuel (and/or money from buying same) can simply drive at 55 in the right lane.  Anyone think that they&#039;ll be passing Senator Clinton and her entourage driving at 55?  I, perhaps cynically, believe that she&#039;ll take the opportunity to save driving time, where legal, and drive at the limit, even if it&#039;s above 55, because she&#039;s an important person with places to go and things to do.  Unlike the unwashed mob she&#039;s trying to protect.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sort of argument is often thrown around to justify time-saving techniques (or lambast time-wasting ones).  For your argument to hold up, however, it is not enough to specify hourly wages; the person in question must actually be <i>able</i> to earn the money.  In other words, assuming that the person left for work at the same time in both cases, and returned home at the same time, the extra 22 minutes per hour you specify might enable that person to earn the extra $6.  If they are paid from 8 to 5, however, they earn exactly $0 if they show up a little early or leave a little late.</p>
<p>
Now, the time you (or this special person) spend on all of the non-commute trips, such as the drive to gramma&#8217;s house, would not have the earning power you note (assuming that you are already working the hours you can for the wages you can pull down), so the argument becomes less powerful.  Note, of course, that you already receive recompense for any time spent driving on the job.  And, of course, those poor fools like me who work for a set salary don&#8217;t have the option of earning additional money by working more hours.</p>
<p>
You could argue that your hourly wage indicates the value that <i>you</i> put on your time, in which case the argument (somewhat) holds water.  Instead, however, you could argue that the speed limit is the (supposed) maximium, unless you are in California, in which case it appears to be a minimum.  Thus, those people who want to save fuel (and/or money from buying same) can simply drive at 55 in the right lane.  Anyone think that they&#8217;ll be passing Senator Clinton and her entourage driving at 55?  I, perhaps cynically, believe that she&#8217;ll take the opportunity to save driving time, where legal, and drive at the limit, even if it&#8217;s above 55, because she&#8217;s an important person with places to go and things to do.  Unlike the unwashed mob she&#8217;s trying to protect.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mgriffinwalters		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13428</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mgriffinwalters]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13428</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Since I happen to be a student, I took up your student math problem. Based upon your very generous assumptions, the price of gas would have to fall to $1.48 to break even. That means it would have to fall a full 50% in order to hit that mark.

Since it&#039;s unlikely that the minute amount of gas savings experienced by enforcing such a speed limit would actually amount to anything even close to this.

The underlying reason for high gas prices is high oil prices. Though gas use makes up a fair chunk of oil usage, there are many other things, such as energy production, that use it. And, unless we forget, oil, and gas to a lesser extent, are traded on a world market. Therefore, it&#039;s unlikely that this kind of action would amount to more than a drop in the bucket. That is, unless you account for the ability of pathetic politicians to claim that they &quot;did something.&quot;
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since I happen to be a student, I took up your student math problem. Based upon your very generous assumptions, the price of gas would have to fall to $1.48 to break even. That means it would have to fall a full 50% in order to hit that mark.</p>
<p>Since it&#8217;s unlikely that the minute amount of gas savings experienced by enforcing such a speed limit would actually amount to anything even close to this.</p>
<p>The underlying reason for high gas prices is high oil prices. Though gas use makes up a fair chunk of oil usage, there are many other things, such as energy production, that use it. And, unless we forget, oil, and gas to a lesser extent, are traded on a world market. Therefore, it&#8217;s unlikely that this kind of action would amount to more than a drop in the bucket. That is, unless you account for the ability of pathetic politicians to claim that they &#8220;did something.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephen Macklin		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13427</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Macklin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 12:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13427</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I can attest that there are two basic speeds driven on I95 in CT. Depending on the time of day, cars on one side of the highway will move at an average speed approaching 6 mph. The opposite side will be averaging about 75 mph. The posted speed limit is only relevant for the determination of how big your ticket will be.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can attest that there are two basic speeds driven on I95 in CT. Depending on the time of day, cars on one side of the highway will move at an average speed approaching 6 mph. The opposite side will be averaging about 75 mph. The posted speed limit is only relevant for the determination of how big your ticket will be.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Supremacy Claus		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13426</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Supremacy Claus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13426</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Don: You pose a 5th grade math word problem. The math knowledge of the lawyer stops at the 4th grade, that needed to count one&#039;s own money.

It is out of the question that Hillary Clinton will ever be able to follow what you are trying to say.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don: You pose a 5th grade math word problem. The math knowledge of the lawyer stops at the 4th grade, that needed to count one&#8217;s own money.</p>
<p>It is out of the question that Hillary Clinton will ever be able to follow what you are trying to say.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Griffin3		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-13425</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Griffin3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/06/sen-clintons-untimely-proposal/#comment-13425</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;I assume you set up your &#039;exercise for the student&#039; as a joke.  Quite simply, if all this driving 55 causes the gas price to drop, the amount of gas saved is worth LESS, and therefore will never be equal to the dollar value of time  lost.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If you assume the price of gas rises due to external factors, then you will eventually hit a break even point.  As near as I can rough it it out without setting up an equation, the gas price has to rise to $6.76 before Ms. Clinton&#039;s idea makes sense, assuming the rest of the numbers are true.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;From what I recall of high school physics, if you assume no rolling friction, the gas mileage at 55mpg should be, hmm ... 36% better, or 34 mpg.  So that&#039;s not too far off.  In my experience, it&#039;s a hair worse than that, because rolling friction is not zero, part of your power is used to run your AC and alternator, etc., and life just doesn&#039;t follow a physics equation.  Although, it might be more telling that  all these cars are rated by the EPA at a rather quaint 55 mph; so it might be better to think of the average mileage to be 25 mpg, and mileage at 75 to be more like 18 mpg.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;[GEEK ALERT: The oft-repeated assertion that driving twice as fast quadruples your gas consumption is misleading enough to be considered junk science.  Although technically true that your fuel-per-time squares, your distance traveled increases proprotional to speed, and so your mpg decreases only linearly compared to your speed (as in, a straight-line tradeoff.)]&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And any remaining folks that say that driving 55 saves lives are mistaken; many studies have shown that overall accidents remained dead steady at 1.2 per million man-miles driven (although fatalities have decreased a hair due to seat belt use and marginal safety improvements.)
&lt;/p&gt;
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume you set up your &#8216;exercise for the student&#8217; as a joke.  Quite simply, if all this driving 55 causes the gas price to drop, the amount of gas saved is worth LESS, and therefore will never be equal to the dollar value of time  lost.</p>
<p>If you assume the price of gas rises due to external factors, then you will eventually hit a break even point.  As near as I can rough it it out without setting up an equation, the gas price has to rise to $6.76 before Ms. Clinton&#8217;s idea makes sense, assuming the rest of the numbers are true.</p>
<p>From what I recall of high school physics, if you assume no rolling friction, the gas mileage at 55mpg should be, hmm &#8230; 36% better, or 34 mpg.  So that&#8217;s not too far off.  In my experience, it&#8217;s a hair worse than that, because rolling friction is not zero, part of your power is used to run your AC and alternator, etc., and life just doesn&#8217;t follow a physics equation.  Although, it might be more telling that  all these cars are rated by the EPA at a rather quaint 55 mph; so it might be better to think of the average mileage to be 25 mpg, and mileage at 75 to be more like 18 mpg.</p>
<p>[GEEK ALERT: The oft-repeated assertion that driving twice as fast quadruples your gas consumption is misleading enough to be considered junk science.  Although technically true that your fuel-per-time squares, your distance traveled increases proprotional to speed, and so your mpg decreases only linearly compared to your speed (as in, a straight-line tradeoff.)]</p>
<p>And any remaining folks that say that driving 55 saves lives are mistaken; many studies have shown that overall accidents remained dead steady at 1.2 per million man-miles driven (although fatalities have decreased a hair due to seat belt use and marginal safety improvements.)</p>
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