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	<title>
	Comments on: Paternalism and Your Money &#8212; Part Two	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:33:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>
		By: dweeb		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13536</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dweeb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13536</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;they already told me that if I don&#039;t like it I can find another bank.&lt;/i&gt;

You can call their bluff, or not.  It&#039;s up to you.  I&#039;d also look into whether they&#039;re liable for the costs you incurred due to their mistake.

&lt;i&gt;The only reason that I&#039;m staying is that it is the same bank that the company I work for has it&#039;s accounts at. I don&#039;t want to have to wait 3 to 5 days for my per diem checks to reach my account when I make a trip.&lt;/i&gt;

You could always cover the gap with a payday loan :)
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>they already told me that if I don&#8217;t like it I can find another bank.</i></p>
<p>You can call their bluff, or not.  It&#8217;s up to you.  I&#8217;d also look into whether they&#8217;re liable for the costs you incurred due to their mistake.</p>
<p><i>The only reason that I&#8217;m staying is that it is the same bank that the company I work for has it&#8217;s accounts at. I don&#8217;t want to have to wait 3 to 5 days for my per diem checks to reach my account when I make a trip.</i></p>
<p>You could always cover the gap with a payday loan 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jim Collins		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13535</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Collins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13535</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dweeb, they already told me that if I don&#039;t like it I can find another bank.  The only reason that I&#039;m staying is that it is the same bank that the company I work for has it&#039;s accounts at.  I don&#039;t want to have to wait 3 to 5 days for my per diem checks to reach my account when I make a trip.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dweeb, they already told me that if I don&#8217;t like it I can find another bank.  The only reason that I&#8217;m staying is that it is the same bank that the company I work for has it&#8217;s accounts at.  I don&#8217;t want to have to wait 3 to 5 days for my per diem checks to reach my account when I make a trip.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dweeb		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13534</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dweeb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13534</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The government probably should step in in some manner to help make sure the transaction is really voluntary, fully informed, and fully private. Especially, when there is a significant power or information difference between the parties. Basically, maintaining a fair market.&lt;/i&gt;

On what do you base the assertion that there is an information difference?  All the information is AVAILABLE to the customer, who CHOOSES to disregard it, or not to consider the long term consequences of habitually using the service.  Is it an unfair maket anytime one party has a weaker negotiating position?  Ultimately, what you&#039;re asking for is government to remove the natural consequences of living hand to mouth, and with them the rewards for budgeting and saving.  The first part of that sounds wonderful, until you consider that these loans are high risk, and no one lends money out of the kindness of their hearts.  The market dictates that the return on these loans will be exactly as high as it needs to be for sufficient people to accept the risk of making them to meet the demand.  The only way to negate that effect is for government to artificially lower the risk or subsidize the return, which forces me, as a fiscally responsible taxpayer, to subsidize other people&#039;s irresponsibility.  If the public is accountable to pay for the consequences, then the public rightly is entitled to a say in the decisions leading to the consequences, which means the government telling the likely customers for these loans how much of their paycheck they&#039;re allowed to spend.    As stupid as I think it is for someone making minimum wage to spend money on various personal vices when they could be saving it, I&#039;ll defend their right to do so, because I value my own freedom to make my own financial decisions.  So you see where your position leads?


]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The government probably should step in in some manner to help make sure the transaction is really voluntary, fully informed, and fully private. Especially, when there is a significant power or information difference between the parties. Basically, maintaining a fair market.</i></p>
<p>On what do you base the assertion that there is an information difference?  All the information is AVAILABLE to the customer, who CHOOSES to disregard it, or not to consider the long term consequences of habitually using the service.  Is it an unfair maket anytime one party has a weaker negotiating position?  Ultimately, what you&#8217;re asking for is government to remove the natural consequences of living hand to mouth, and with them the rewards for budgeting and saving.  The first part of that sounds wonderful, until you consider that these loans are high risk, and no one lends money out of the kindness of their hearts.  The market dictates that the return on these loans will be exactly as high as it needs to be for sufficient people to accept the risk of making them to meet the demand.  The only way to negate that effect is for government to artificially lower the risk or subsidize the return, which forces me, as a fiscally responsible taxpayer, to subsidize other people&#8217;s irresponsibility.  If the public is accountable to pay for the consequences, then the public rightly is entitled to a say in the decisions leading to the consequences, which means the government telling the likely customers for these loans how much of their paycheck they&#8217;re allowed to spend.    As stupid as I think it is for someone making minimum wage to spend money on various personal vices when they could be saving it, I&#8217;ll defend their right to do so, because I value my own freedom to make my own financial decisions.  So you see where your position leads?</p>
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		<title>
		By: dweeb		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13533</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dweeb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13533</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jim, if you&#039;re a good customer, you might find the bank very accommodating if you threaten to take your business elsewhere.  (capitalism is neat that way.)
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, if you&#8217;re a good customer, you might find the bank very accommodating if you threaten to take your business elsewhere.  (capitalism is neat that way.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jim Collins		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13532</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Collins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13532</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I can go one better.  My bank processed my rent check twice and withdrew the money from my account each time.  This caused me to &quot;bounce&quot; 8 checks.  I was on a camping trip at the time and away from the Internet so I didn&#039;t catch it for a week.  When I finally found out the bank credited my account with all of the $40.00 fees that it had charged me and the $750 for the rent check.  I was on my own for the $25 to $50 fees from the people I had written &quot;bad&quot; checks to.  Ended up costing me about $300.  I called the State Banking Commission and was told that I had no recourse against the bank for an &quot;honest error&quot;.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can go one better.  My bank processed my rent check twice and withdrew the money from my account each time.  This caused me to &#8220;bounce&#8221; 8 checks.  I was on a camping trip at the time and away from the Internet so I didn&#8217;t catch it for a week.  When I finally found out the bank credited my account with all of the $40.00 fees that it had charged me and the $750 for the rent check.  I was on my own for the $25 to $50 fees from the people I had written &#8220;bad&#8221; checks to.  Ended up costing me about $300.  I called the State Banking Commission and was told that I had no recourse against the bank for an &#8220;honest error&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13531</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13531</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The government probably should step in in some manner to help make sure the transaction is really voluntary, fully informed, and fully private. Especially, when there is a significant power or information difference between the parties. Basically, maintaining a fair market.&lt;/i&gt;

The government (or, quite often, attorneys) deciding that it knows better than us which deals consumers want to make &lt;i&gt;ex ante&lt;/i&gt; is the first step towards the government regulating the market by dictating what prices and services may be offered.  The principle needs to be defended even if one finds the business or customer base less than exquisitely tasteful, or if we think that we are too clever to engage in such services.  What&#039;s the difference between stopping a consumer from purchasing a payday loan and stopping a consumer from eating a pint of Ben &amp; Jerry&#039;s?

The payday-loan banks are responding to market demand, a demand that used to be filled by organized crime, which would offer penalties somewhat more punitive than $35 fees.

Mark, numerous banks provide overdraft protection; I once mistakenly set an automatic bill payment to the 30th of every month rather than the last day of every month, and overdrew my account by a thousand bucks a few months ago in a 31-day month.  Cost me under a dollar.  If your bank won&#039;t waive the fees, switch banks.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The government probably should step in in some manner to help make sure the transaction is really voluntary, fully informed, and fully private. Especially, when there is a significant power or information difference between the parties. Basically, maintaining a fair market.</i></p>
<p>The government (or, quite often, attorneys) deciding that it knows better than us which deals consumers want to make <i>ex ante</i> is the first step towards the government regulating the market by dictating what prices and services may be offered.  The principle needs to be defended even if one finds the business or customer base less than exquisitely tasteful, or if we think that we are too clever to engage in such services.  What&#8217;s the difference between stopping a consumer from purchasing a payday loan and stopping a consumer from eating a pint of Ben &#038; Jerry&#8217;s?</p>
<p>The payday-loan banks are responding to market demand, a demand that used to be filled by organized crime, which would offer penalties somewhat more punitive than $35 fees.</p>
<p>Mark, numerous banks provide overdraft protection; I once mistakenly set an automatic bill payment to the 30th of every month rather than the last day of every month, and overdrew my account by a thousand bucks a few months ago in a 31-day month.  Cost me under a dollar.  If your bank won&#8217;t waive the fees, switch banks.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13530</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13530</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I inadvertently overdrew a $3.92 check on the day before pay day. My bank charged a $35 bad check fee, then graciously a $6 &quot;retry &quot; fee, to pay the check. I&#039;d have been much happier to pay 1000% interest on $3.92 for one day, than $41 in bank fees for the same service.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I inadvertently overdrew a $3.92 check on the day before pay day. My bank charged a $35 bad check fee, then graciously a $6 &#8220;retry &#8221; fee, to pay the check. I&#8217;d have been much happier to pay 1000% interest on $3.92 for one day, than $41 in bank fees for the same service.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13529</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13529</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If enconomists disagree about a &#039;Basic principle of economics&quot; possibly it&#039;s not a basic principle...

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If enconomists disagree about a &#8216;Basic principle of economics&#8221; possibly it&#8217;s not a basic principle&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13528</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13528</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Iam not a lawyer. And, this may not apply strictly to payday loans or even genral banning of acts, but a justification for government sticking its nose into such transactions is implicit in your question:  &quot;What precisely is the justification for a government to ban voluntary, fully informed, fully private loans -- or other private contracts, or other private activities generally?&quot;

The government probably should step in in some manner to help make sure the transaction is really voluntary, fully informed, and fully private.  Especially, when there is a significant power or information difference between the parties. Basically, maintaining a fair market.

I just thought of another reason for loans in particular. Who enforces repayment of the loan? The government which in a democracy menas all of us. Since, the government is the representative of the people do we really want our government in the business of enforcing outrageous loan terms on people who may or may not have entered into the agreement fully informed.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iam not a lawyer. And, this may not apply strictly to payday loans or even genral banning of acts, but a justification for government sticking its nose into such transactions is implicit in your question:  &#8220;What precisely is the justification for a government to ban voluntary, fully informed, fully private loans &#8212; or other private contracts, or other private activities generally?&#8221;</p>
<p>The government probably should step in in some manner to help make sure the transaction is really voluntary, fully informed, and fully private.  Especially, when there is a significant power or information difference between the parties. Basically, maintaining a fair market.</p>
<p>I just thought of another reason for loans in particular. Who enforces repayment of the loan? The government which in a democracy menas all of us. Since, the government is the representative of the people do we really want our government in the business of enforcing outrageous loan terms on people who may or may not have entered into the agreement fully informed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: nevins		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-13527</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nevins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2006/08/paternalism-and-your-money-part-two/#comment-13527</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When it comes down to it, the money changes will need only to itemize the fees in the same manner my mortgage lender does:  service fees, origination fee, mortgage insurance, background check, recording fee, title insurance and any number of other one time expenses that they can dream up.  A good chunk of the payday loan fees probably would not be considered interest by ordinary business accounting, but rather be expensed as the cost of originating the loan (office staff, &#039;insurance&#039; for bad loan repayment, etc.) with a modest interest rate nominally stated.
If attorneys general get after these businesses they will merely respond with better accounting.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it comes down to it, the money changes will need only to itemize the fees in the same manner my mortgage lender does:  service fees, origination fee, mortgage insurance, background check, recording fee, title insurance and any number of other one time expenses that they can dream up.  A good chunk of the payday loan fees probably would not be considered interest by ordinary business accounting, but rather be expensed as the cost of originating the loan (office staff, &#8216;insurance&#8217; for bad loan repayment, etc.) with a modest interest rate nominally stated.<br />
If attorneys general get after these businesses they will merely respond with better accounting.</p>
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