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	<title>
	Comments on: Deep pocket files: Newark police chase	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6768</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6768</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Tom, if democratically-elected officials evaluating their pursuit policy weigh the costs and benefits and decide to agree with you instead of me, well, that&#039;s one thing.  What I object to is the regulation by litigation: it distorts the policy judgment if police are liable for the effects of a pursuit but are not liable for the effects of letting a criminal get away, and there is no way that this results in an optimal policy determination even aside from the fundamental unfairness of blaming the deep pocket for the action of the criminal.  We seem to agree that this is a good case for immunity.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, if democratically-elected officials evaluating their pursuit policy weigh the costs and benefits and decide to agree with you instead of me, well, that&#8217;s one thing.  What I object to is the regulation by litigation: it distorts the policy judgment if police are liable for the effects of a pursuit but are not liable for the effects of letting a criminal get away, and there is no way that this results in an optimal policy determination even aside from the fundamental unfairness of blaming the deep pocket for the action of the criminal.  We seem to agree that this is a good case for immunity.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Melvin		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6767</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Melvin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 13:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6767</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Uh, Justinian? . . . Justinian? . . . Justinian? . . . Justinian????
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, Justinian? . . . Justinian? . . . Justinian? . . . Justinian????</p>
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		<title>
		By: jb		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6766</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 18:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6766</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I can&#039;t believe anyone is seriously suggesting not doing everything possible to catch criminals.

If I had my car stolen, the cops had the perp in their sights and they just let him go, I&#039;d be hopping mad, and I&#039;d be right to.

Even if not chasing them produces higher short-term utility, the incentives are just wrong.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe anyone is seriously suggesting not doing everything possible to catch criminals.</p>
<p>If I had my car stolen, the cops had the perp in their sights and they just let him go, I&#8217;d be hopping mad, and I&#8217;d be right to.</p>
<p>Even if not chasing them produces higher short-term utility, the incentives are just wrong.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom T.		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6765</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6765</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ted, it&#039;s not that we disagree about the sequence of events.  We&#039;re both saying that the criminal&#039;s decision in step (4) is driven by the police decision at step (3).  As I see it, the difference is that you&#039;re saying that the only two options that the criminal will consider are (a) give up or (b) flee recklessly.  I&#039;m suggesting that there is a third option (c) flee at a speed that is not life-threatening to those around them, once they see that they are not being pursued.  If the criminal is indeed rational, he&#039;s not going to risk his own life (or make himself needlessly conspicuous) through dangerous driving any more than he has to.

Moreover, eliminating the police pursuit indisputably eliminates the danger that the police cruiser will accidentally kill a bystander, as has happened in the past, here in DC.

As for my gunfire analogy, I read you to be essentially saying that it&#039;s a difference of degree.  Cops can outshoot most criminals, too; they&#039;ve generally got more and bigger guns available.  The issue is the likelihood of collateral harm to innocent people, which is the same issue at stake as to car chases.  I do agree, though, that shooting into a crowd certainly carries much worse odds for bystanders, which weakens the analogy.

Your point 3 has validity, but only if the criminal continues to drive recklessly when not being pursued.  As I mention above, I think a rational actor generally has incentives not to do so.

I should clarify that I&#039;m only arguing about the public-safety effects; I do not support the award of damages from the city to the bystanders in this sort of case.  This seems like a quintessential case for immunity.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted, it&#8217;s not that we disagree about the sequence of events.  We&#8217;re both saying that the criminal&#8217;s decision in step (4) is driven by the police decision at step (3).  As I see it, the difference is that you&#8217;re saying that the only two options that the criminal will consider are (a) give up or (b) flee recklessly.  I&#8217;m suggesting that there is a third option (c) flee at a speed that is not life-threatening to those around them, once they see that they are not being pursued.  If the criminal is indeed rational, he&#8217;s not going to risk his own life (or make himself needlessly conspicuous) through dangerous driving any more than he has to.</p>
<p>Moreover, eliminating the police pursuit indisputably eliminates the danger that the police cruiser will accidentally kill a bystander, as has happened in the past, here in DC.</p>
<p>As for my gunfire analogy, I read you to be essentially saying that it&#8217;s a difference of degree.  Cops can outshoot most criminals, too; they&#8217;ve generally got more and bigger guns available.  The issue is the likelihood of collateral harm to innocent people, which is the same issue at stake as to car chases.  I do agree, though, that shooting into a crowd certainly carries much worse odds for bystanders, which weakens the analogy.</p>
<p>Your point 3 has validity, but only if the criminal continues to drive recklessly when not being pursued.  As I mention above, I think a rational actor generally has incentives not to do so.</p>
<p>I should clarify that I&#8217;m only arguing about the public-safety effects; I do not support the award of damages from the city to the bystanders in this sort of case.  This seems like a quintessential case for immunity.</p>
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		<title>
		By: markm		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6764</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[markm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6764</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When the flashers go on, not every criminal rationally decides whether or not it&#039;s a good idea to try to outrun the cops. Many just react, stomping on the gas immediately, and thinking it through later, if ever. And it&#039;s possible that a young person will do that even when all they&#039;re trying to get out of is a traffic ticket. OTOH, if you knew that taking off at high speed would ensure you got away, wouldn&#039;t you do it every time? So catching every single person who flees at high speed when the cops try to stop them, for any reason at all, won&#039;t reduce the number of such incidents to zero, it certainly will reduce them. How the risks balance out is a tough question to answer, and you aren&#039;t going to get it from statistical studies - these accidents just don&#039;t happen often enough to separate the effects of different policies from random chance.

One other harm in not chasing is that sometimes that apparent traffic offender or car thief is actually a much more dangerous criminal, who will hurt or kill people until he is stopped. E.g., many steal cars just to drive them around a little, some steal them to sell to a chop shop (and may be carjackers who are indifferent to the dangers to their victims), and some steal them because they need a getaway car that can&#039;t be traced back to them for high-risk armed robberies. It&#039;s unlikely that a cop who lets a car thief get away is actually letting a serial robber-murderer get away with the evidence of his latest crime, but it&#039;s also pretty unlikely that any innocents will be killed if he chases the car...
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the flashers go on, not every criminal rationally decides whether or not it&#8217;s a good idea to try to outrun the cops. Many just react, stomping on the gas immediately, and thinking it through later, if ever. And it&#8217;s possible that a young person will do that even when all they&#8217;re trying to get out of is a traffic ticket. OTOH, if you knew that taking off at high speed would ensure you got away, wouldn&#8217;t you do it every time? So catching every single person who flees at high speed when the cops try to stop them, for any reason at all, won&#8217;t reduce the number of such incidents to zero, it certainly will reduce them. How the risks balance out is a tough question to answer, and you aren&#8217;t going to get it from statistical studies &#8211; these accidents just don&#8217;t happen often enough to separate the effects of different policies from random chance.</p>
<p>One other harm in not chasing is that sometimes that apparent traffic offender or car thief is actually a much more dangerous criminal, who will hurt or kill people until he is stopped. E.g., many steal cars just to drive them around a little, some steal them to sell to a chop shop (and may be carjackers who are indifferent to the dangers to their victims), and some steal them because they need a getaway car that can&#8217;t be traced back to them for high-risk armed robberies. It&#8217;s unlikely that a cop who lets a car thief get away is actually letting a serial robber-murderer get away with the evidence of his latest crime, but it&#8217;s also pretty unlikely that any innocents will be killed if he chases the car&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Deoxy		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6763</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deoxy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6763</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;I would rather a car thief escape and ditch the car, instead of having the thief or the police officer lose control and kill a pedestrian(s).&quot;

Problem with that sentiment: you CAN have it both ways!  That is, you can both let the offender go AND get dead civilians.

The way the offender gets away is by speeding and reckless driving, etc.  The only effect the police have on that is HOW LONG it gos on and if the person is rewarded (they get away) for the behaviour.

You get feewer CHASES, but not fewer incidents of reckless high speed (in fact, you&#039;d almost certainly get more, as any criminal with half a brain and any confidence in his driving ability would do so).  So, you effectively get the worst of both worlds: more time spent at reckless high speed AND fewer criminals caught.

Yay!  Let&#039;s do THAT!  [/sarcasm]

Oh, and Ted&#039;s last post to Tom (about Tom&#039;s analogy not being applicable) is spot on - I was going to post something similar (but worded less succinctly, I&#039;m sure).
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I would rather a car thief escape and ditch the car, instead of having the thief or the police officer lose control and kill a pedestrian(s).&#8221;</p>
<p>Problem with that sentiment: you CAN have it both ways!  That is, you can both let the offender go AND get dead civilians.</p>
<p>The way the offender gets away is by speeding and reckless driving, etc.  The only effect the police have on that is HOW LONG it gos on and if the person is rewarded (they get away) for the behaviour.</p>
<p>You get feewer CHASES, but not fewer incidents of reckless high speed (in fact, you&#8217;d almost certainly get more, as any criminal with half a brain and any confidence in his driving ability would do so).  So, you effectively get the worst of both worlds: more time spent at reckless high speed AND fewer criminals caught.</p>
<p>Yay!  Let&#8217;s do THAT!  [/sarcasm]</p>
<p>Oh, and Ted&#8217;s last post to Tom (about Tom&#8217;s analogy not being applicable) is spot on &#8211; I was going to post something similar (but worded less succinctly, I&#8217;m sure).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Alexander		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6762</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6762</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m surprised it was only the city sued.  The obvious target should be the car company for having the temerity to build a car capable of speeds over 35 mph.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised it was only the city sued.  The obvious target should be the car company for having the temerity to build a car capable of speeds over 35 mph.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6761</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6761</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Tom, I think you have the sequence wrong, and thus the causation:

1) Police turn on flashers;
2) Criminal runs;
3) Police follow;
4) Criminal decides whether to give himself up or speed up.

I see where you&#039;re going with the slippery slope argument, but there are critical factual distinctions:

1) Cops can outdrive criminals.  They&#039;re driving powerful Fords designed to handle precisely these situations, and have the power of numbers.  Very very few criminals escape in a car if the police decide to give chase; when escapes do happen, it&#039;s because the criminal abandons the car and goes on foot.
2) Except in the movies, a cop can&#039;t fire into a crowd and hope to stop a criminal: even one-on-one, cops hit maybe 40% of their shots.  Thus, changing the policy to allow cops to fire into crowds would not greatly change criminals&#039; risk calculations in deciding whether to escape into the crowd.
3) The criminals&#039; decision to speed endangers the public even if the cops give up the chase in response.  The same is not true for the criminal escapes into the crowd and police holster their weapons scenario.  Thus, the effect of incentivizing the &quot;try to escape&quot; strategy has a different effect on public safety.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, I think you have the sequence wrong, and thus the causation:</p>
<p>1) Police turn on flashers;<br />
2) Criminal runs;<br />
3) Police follow;<br />
4) Criminal decides whether to give himself up or speed up.</p>
<p>I see where you&#8217;re going with the slippery slope argument, but there are critical factual distinctions:</p>
<p>1) Cops can outdrive criminals.  They&#8217;re driving powerful Fords designed to handle precisely these situations, and have the power of numbers.  Very very few criminals escape in a car if the police decide to give chase; when escapes do happen, it&#8217;s because the criminal abandons the car and goes on foot.<br />
2) Except in the movies, a cop can&#8217;t fire into a crowd and hope to stop a criminal: even one-on-one, cops hit maybe 40% of their shots.  Thus, changing the policy to allow cops to fire into crowds would not greatly change criminals&#8217; risk calculations in deciding whether to escape into the crowd.<br />
3) The criminals&#8217; decision to speed endangers the public even if the cops give up the chase in response.  The same is not true for the criminal escapes into the crowd and police holster their weapons scenario.  Thus, the effect of incentivizing the &#8220;try to escape&#8221; strategy has a different effect on public safety.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Melvin		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6760</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Melvin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 04:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6760</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hold on a minute here . . . the focus seems to have been lost:  &quot;...Three car thieves running from police in a stolen SUV swerved into a group of pedestrians.&quot;

Uh, Justinian--it was the CAR THIEVES who swerved into the pedestrians wile running from their criminal act.  Why are the car thieves not the ones on the hook for civil damages? [I assume there were charges of vehicular assault and reckless driving, or even attempted murder{?}, here against--at least--the thief driving!]  I know, I KNOW . . . @%$%**@$&amp;# deep pocket theory!!!!!

Seems to me this is &quot;which came first, chicken or egg&quot;?  Thieves steal SUV, police find thieves in SUV and give chase, and thieves while trying a getaway run into a crowd of pedestrians.  How do police end up being found negligent and pay out money?

Let&#039;s see . . . thieves DON&#039;T steal SUV, cops AREN&#039;T looking for them, DON&#039;T give chase, thieves DON&#039;T swerve into crowd, NO ONE sues to get money from anyone.  Make sense?
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hold on a minute here . . . the focus seems to have been lost:  &#8220;&#8230;Three car thieves running from police in a stolen SUV swerved into a group of pedestrians.&#8221;</p>
<p>Uh, Justinian&#8211;it was the CAR THIEVES who swerved into the pedestrians wile running from their criminal act.  Why are the car thieves not the ones on the hook for civil damages? [I assume there were charges of vehicular assault and reckless driving, or even attempted murder{?}, here against&#8211;at least&#8211;the thief driving!]  I know, I KNOW . . . @%$%**@$&#038;# deep pocket theory!!!!!</p>
<p>Seems to me this is &#8220;which came first, chicken or egg&#8221;?  Thieves steal SUV, police find thieves in SUV and give chase, and thieves while trying a getaway run into a crowd of pedestrians.  How do police end up being found negligent and pay out money?</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s see . . . thieves DON&#8217;T steal SUV, cops AREN&#8217;T looking for them, DON&#8217;T give chase, thieves DON&#8217;T swerve into crowd, NO ONE sues to get money from anyone.  Make sense?</p>
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		<title>
		By: LAN3		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/04/deep-pocket-files-newark-police-chase/comment-page-1/#comment-6759</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LAN3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 03:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=4762#comment-6759</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ted mentions DC vs. Virginia gun ownership; that and this article thrust into my mind the realization that the nerfing of police abilities to pursue criminals because they (and not the fleeing, reckless crooks) are on the hook for this unfortunate collateral harm is another reason I cannot trust the gun-control advocates who want guns to be prohibited to all except police.  If that were the situation, it is inevitable that some municipalities or even states would take guns out of the hands of their own policemen in order to prevent stray bullets.  In those places, truly only the criminals will have guns.

I&#039;m not shouting about a slippering slope, here, just that the idea of disarming the entire population, and restricting sidearms to an obviously idealized (uncorruptible, undiscriminating, universally responsible, and rapidly-responding) police force is a program that, realized, wouldn&#039;t satisfy its proponents because they still misunderstand who (and not what) is responsible for gun deaths, just as these unfortunate pedestrians don&#039;t comprehend who it is that endangered them.

I&#039;m a pedestrian, myself-- I&#039;m very sympathetic, because I&#039;ve had some close calls by drivers, and I know I can&#039;t dent a car that&#039;ll break every bone in my body.  I also know, though, that a driver&#039;s only control on other vehicles is to limit the speed of the guy behind him.  You can&#039;t make the guy in front go faster unless you shove him.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted mentions DC vs. Virginia gun ownership; that and this article thrust into my mind the realization that the nerfing of police abilities to pursue criminals because they (and not the fleeing, reckless crooks) are on the hook for this unfortunate collateral harm is another reason I cannot trust the gun-control advocates who want guns to be prohibited to all except police.  If that were the situation, it is inevitable that some municipalities or even states would take guns out of the hands of their own policemen in order to prevent stray bullets.  In those places, truly only the criminals will have guns.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not shouting about a slippering slope, here, just that the idea of disarming the entire population, and restricting sidearms to an obviously idealized (uncorruptible, undiscriminating, universally responsible, and rapidly-responding) police force is a program that, realized, wouldn&#8217;t satisfy its proponents because they still misunderstand who (and not what) is responsible for gun deaths, just as these unfortunate pedestrians don&#8217;t comprehend who it is that endangered them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a pedestrian, myself&#8211; I&#8217;m very sympathetic, because I&#8217;ve had some close calls by drivers, and I know I can&#8217;t dent a car that&#8217;ll break every bone in my body.  I also know, though, that a driver&#8217;s only control on other vehicles is to limit the speed of the guy behind him.  You can&#8217;t make the guy in front go faster unless you shove him.</p>
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