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	<title>
	Comments on: Your Prisoner Sex Change Update	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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		<title>
		By: ChrisD		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14351</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ChrisD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14351</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If a prisoner were outside, she probably would have to pay for it herself. But if it&#039;s medically necessary, shuldn&#039;t insurance pay for it? And you&#039;re paying a share of insurance, aren&#039;t you? So why quibble about, essentially, paying insurance-charges-as-taxes?
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a prisoner were outside, she probably would have to pay for it herself. But if it&#8217;s medically necessary, shuldn&#8217;t insurance pay for it? And you&#8217;re paying a share of insurance, aren&#8217;t you? So why quibble about, essentially, paying insurance-charges-as-taxes?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14350</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2007 06:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14350</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Gosh, where to begin?

The standard rate in most textbooks for Transsexuality is 1 in 30,000. It&#039;s more than that, but the measured cost of providing health insurance coverage for surgery in the general population is 11c a year.

There seems to be a fear that there will be massive numbers of (presumably gay) males queuing up to be castrated. Think about that,  and you can see how absurd it is.

My surgery in Thailand cost $16,000 US - but I went to the most expensive surgeon there. Necessary, as the normal operation requires a normal male anatomy to start with, and this surgeon&#039;s procedure doesn&#039;t.

From a legal viewpoint, I refer you to &quot;Re Kevin in Perspective&quot; in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.austlii.org/au/journals/DeakinLRev/2004/22.html#Heading437&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Deakin Law Review 2004&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;b&gt;Re Kevin – Significant findings of Justice Richard Chisholm in respect of the expert medical evidence in that case as to the causation of transsexualism and as strongly affirmed by the Full Court on appeal&lt;/b&gt;

quote

At paragraph [247]: ‘In my view the expert evidence in this case affirms that brain development is (at least) an important determinant of a person’s sense of being a man or a woman. No contrary opinion is expressed. All the experts are very well qualified. None was required for cross-examination, nor was any contrary evidence called’.

At paragraph [248]: ‘In my view the evidence is, in essence, that the experts believe that the brain development view is likely to be true, and they explain the basis for their beliefs. In the circumstances, I see no reason why I should not accept the proposition, on the balance of probabilities, for the purpose of this case.’

At paragraph [252]: ‘The traditional analysis that they are &quot;psychologically&quot; transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For example, there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that their psychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable’.

At paragraph [253]: ‘In other words (as I understand it) the brain of an individual may in some sense be male, for example, though the rest of the person’s body is female’.

At paragraph [265]: ‘In my view the argument in favour of the “brain sex&quot; view is also based on evidence about the development and experience of transsexuals and others with atypical sex-related characteristics. There is a vast literature on this, some of which is in evidence, and I can do no more than mention briefly some of the main points’.

At paragraph [268]: ‘It seems quite wrong to think of these people as merely wishing or preferring to be of the opposite sex, or having the opinion that they are’.

At paragraph [270]: ‘But I am satisfied that the evidence now is inconsistent with the distinction formerly drawn between biological factors, meaning genitals, chromosomes and gonads, and merely &quot;psychological factors&quot;, and on this basis distinguishing between cases of inter-sex (incongruities among biological factors) and transsexualism (incongruities between biology and psychology)’.

At paragraph [272]: ‘In my view the evidence demonstrates (at least on the balance of probabilities) that the characteristics of transsexuals are as much “biological” as those of people thought of as inter-sex’.

At paragraph [136]: ‘I agree with Ms Wallbank that in the present context the word &quot;man&quot; should be given its ordinary contemporary meaning. In determining that meaning, it is relevant to have regard to many things that were the subject of evidence and submissions. They include the context of the legislation, the body of case law on the meaning of &quot;man&quot; and similar words, the purpose of the legislation, and the current legal, social and medical environment. These matters are considered in the course of the judgment.  I believe that this approach is in accordance with common sense, principles of statutory interpretation, and with all or virtually all of the authorities in which the issue of sexual identity has arisen. As Professor Gooren and a colleague put it:-

“There should be no escape for medical and legal authorities that these definitions ought to be corrected and updated when new information becomes available, particularly when our outdated definitions bring suffering to some of our fellow human beings”.’

end quote

Changing one&#039;s external, apparent gender to match the constant, internal one you&#039;ve had since birth is difficult, to say the least. There are huge medical and social problems. Having legal absurdities too does not help.

I believe the Wisconsin denial of hormones is incontestably a barbarity. As for surgery, if the competent medical authorities rule that surgery is necessary to keep someone alive and sane, the legislature should not gainsay them - regardless of the nature of that surgery.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh, where to begin?</p>
<p>The standard rate in most textbooks for Transsexuality is 1 in 30,000. It&#8217;s more than that, but the measured cost of providing health insurance coverage for surgery in the general population is 11c a year.</p>
<p>There seems to be a fear that there will be massive numbers of (presumably gay) males queuing up to be castrated. Think about that,  and you can see how absurd it is.</p>
<p>My surgery in Thailand cost $16,000 US &#8211; but I went to the most expensive surgeon there. Necessary, as the normal operation requires a normal male anatomy to start with, and this surgeon&#8217;s procedure doesn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>From a legal viewpoint, I refer you to &#8220;Re Kevin in Perspective&#8221; in the <a href="http://www.austlii.org/au/journals/DeakinLRev/2004/22.html#Heading437" rel="nofollow">Deakin Law Review 2004</a>.</p>
<p><b>Re Kevin – Significant findings of Justice Richard Chisholm in respect of the expert medical evidence in that case as to the causation of transsexualism and as strongly affirmed by the Full Court on appeal</b></p>
<p>quote</p>
<p>At paragraph [247]: ‘In my view the expert evidence in this case affirms that brain development is (at least) an important determinant of a person’s sense of being a man or a woman. No contrary opinion is expressed. All the experts are very well qualified. None was required for cross-examination, nor was any contrary evidence called’.</p>
<p>At paragraph [248]: ‘In my view the evidence is, in essence, that the experts believe that the brain development view is likely to be true, and they explain the basis for their beliefs. In the circumstances, I see no reason why I should not accept the proposition, on the balance of probabilities, for the purpose of this case.’</p>
<p>At paragraph [252]: ‘The traditional analysis that they are &#8220;psychologically&#8221; transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For example, there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that their psychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable’.</p>
<p>At paragraph [253]: ‘In other words (as I understand it) the brain of an individual may in some sense be male, for example, though the rest of the person’s body is female’.</p>
<p>At paragraph [265]: ‘In my view the argument in favour of the “brain sex&#8221; view is also based on evidence about the development and experience of transsexuals and others with atypical sex-related characteristics. There is a vast literature on this, some of which is in evidence, and I can do no more than mention briefly some of the main points’.</p>
<p>At paragraph [268]: ‘It seems quite wrong to think of these people as merely wishing or preferring to be of the opposite sex, or having the opinion that they are’.</p>
<p>At paragraph [270]: ‘But I am satisfied that the evidence now is inconsistent with the distinction formerly drawn between biological factors, meaning genitals, chromosomes and gonads, and merely &#8220;psychological factors&#8221;, and on this basis distinguishing between cases of inter-sex (incongruities among biological factors) and transsexualism (incongruities between biology and psychology)’.</p>
<p>At paragraph [272]: ‘In my view the evidence demonstrates (at least on the balance of probabilities) that the characteristics of transsexuals are as much “biological” as those of people thought of as inter-sex’.</p>
<p>At paragraph [136]: ‘I agree with Ms Wallbank that in the present context the word &#8220;man&#8221; should be given its ordinary contemporary meaning. In determining that meaning, it is relevant to have regard to many things that were the subject of evidence and submissions. They include the context of the legislation, the body of case law on the meaning of &#8220;man&#8221; and similar words, the purpose of the legislation, and the current legal, social and medical environment. These matters are considered in the course of the judgment.  I believe that this approach is in accordance with common sense, principles of statutory interpretation, and with all or virtually all of the authorities in which the issue of sexual identity has arisen. As Professor Gooren and a colleague put it:-</p>
<p>“There should be no escape for medical and legal authorities that these definitions ought to be corrected and updated when new information becomes available, particularly when our outdated definitions bring suffering to some of our fellow human beings”.’</p>
<p>end quote</p>
<p>Changing one&#8217;s external, apparent gender to match the constant, internal one you&#8217;ve had since birth is difficult, to say the least. There are huge medical and social problems. Having legal absurdities too does not help.</p>
<p>I believe the Wisconsin denial of hormones is incontestably a barbarity. As for surgery, if the competent medical authorities rule that surgery is necessary to keep someone alive and sane, the legislature should not gainsay them &#8211; regardless of the nature of that surgery.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Deoxy		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14349</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deoxy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14349</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;The cost of doing the surgery within the prison system would be minimal compared to the cost of litigating this out.&quot;

Yes... this ONE surgery.  Once established as a &quot;right&quot;, it will not be just this ONE surgery, I assure you.

Not to mention that this is also about what&#039;s RIGHT, not just about what&#039;s cheap.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The cost of doing the surgery within the prison system would be minimal compared to the cost of litigating this out.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes&#8230; this ONE surgery.  Once established as a &#8220;right&#8221;, it will not be just this ONE surgery, I assure you.</p>
<p>Not to mention that this is also about what&#8217;s RIGHT, not just about what&#8217;s cheap.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Marti Abernathey		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14348</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marti Abernathey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14348</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I hope the logic used by most of the commenters here is still used once I get out of law school, it&#039;ll make my job a lot easier.

1. GID is in the DSM-IV and the accepted treatment for severe GID is surgery.

2. That being the case, withholding treatment of a mental disorder is &quot;cruel and unusual&quot; punishment.

3. Without surgery, the inmate will be held in a prison based on their genital configuration. Since they will be targets in most prison settings, they are usually kept in solitary confinement. Again, cruel and unusual punishment.

The figures I&#039;ve seen saying SRS (sex reassignment surgery) costs $52,000 dollars. That&#039;s a highly inflated figure. Even the most expensive surgeon in the US is $26,000. The surgeries are performed in Thailand for as little as $1600.

The answer is quite easy. Either remove GID from the DSM, or pay for the surgery. The cost of doing the surgery within the prison system would be minimal compared to the cost of litigating this out.

PS. The John Hopkins study is old, and is from a known evangelical that has done work for the Catholic Church.

But he&#039;s not biased....
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope the logic used by most of the commenters here is still used once I get out of law school, it&#8217;ll make my job a lot easier.</p>
<p>1. GID is in the DSM-IV and the accepted treatment for severe GID is surgery.</p>
<p>2. That being the case, withholding treatment of a mental disorder is &#8220;cruel and unusual&#8221; punishment.</p>
<p>3. Without surgery, the inmate will be held in a prison based on their genital configuration. Since they will be targets in most prison settings, they are usually kept in solitary confinement. Again, cruel and unusual punishment.</p>
<p>The figures I&#8217;ve seen saying SRS (sex reassignment surgery) costs $52,000 dollars. That&#8217;s a highly inflated figure. Even the most expensive surgeon in the US is $26,000. The surgeries are performed in Thailand for as little as $1600.</p>
<p>The answer is quite easy. Either remove GID from the DSM, or pay for the surgery. The cost of doing the surgery within the prison system would be minimal compared to the cost of litigating this out.</p>
<p>PS. The John Hopkins study is old, and is from a known evangelical that has done work for the Catholic Church.</p>
<p>But he&#8217;s not biased&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Rohan		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14347</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Rohan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14347</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Alan Kellogg: Kosilek is NOT a woman. Kosilek has not had the operation yet, and is not legally a woman.

And the sad but true fact is that sex-reassignment surgery does not really turn a man into a woman anyway. All it can do is make a person superficially appear as a woman, and change his legal status on paper. But this is an outward illusion only. It does not change DNA or hormones (which must be supplied for life) and will not allow him to ever give birth to a child.

And to everyone: believe it or not, no matter how silly you think this case is, the UK is actually worse. You can see here:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com/2007/06/americans-your-tax-dollars-at-work.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com/2007/06/americans-your-tax-dollars-at-work.html&lt;/a&gt;
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan Kellogg: Kosilek is NOT a woman. Kosilek has not had the operation yet, and is not legally a woman.</p>
<p>And the sad but true fact is that sex-reassignment surgery does not really turn a man into a woman anyway. All it can do is make a person superficially appear as a woman, and change his legal status on paper. But this is an outward illusion only. It does not change DNA or hormones (which must be supplied for life) and will not allow him to ever give birth to a child.</p>
<p>And to everyone: believe it or not, no matter how silly you think this case is, the UK is actually worse. You can see here:<br />
<a href="http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com/2007/06/americans-your-tax-dollars-at-work.html" rel="nofollow">http://shieldofachilles.blogspot.com/2007/06/americans-your-tax-dollars-at-work.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Monica		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14346</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Monica]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14346</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[First off, I&#039;m all for the transgendered.

It&#039;s the fact that these convicted criminals are trying to force the state (and hence the taxpayers) to pay for their gender reassignment surgery that gives me a problem.

Most, if not all, of law-abiding transgendered people have to pay for their own reassignment surgeries.  Many can&#039;t afford them at all.

There are also millions of hard-working, law-abiding citizens without health insurance who can&#039;t afford procedures and medications that would save, extend, or drastically improve their lives.

It&#039;s crueler and more unusual punishment to let good, lawful citizens go without treatment that to let this lifer go without a state-funded vagina.

Maybe she can afford one herself like everyone else, starting with all the funds her lawyers are spending on experts right now.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First off, I&#8217;m all for the transgendered.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the fact that these convicted criminals are trying to force the state (and hence the taxpayers) to pay for their gender reassignment surgery that gives me a problem.</p>
<p>Most, if not all, of law-abiding transgendered people have to pay for their own reassignment surgeries.  Many can&#8217;t afford them at all.</p>
<p>There are also millions of hard-working, law-abiding citizens without health insurance who can&#8217;t afford procedures and medications that would save, extend, or drastically improve their lives.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s crueler and more unusual punishment to let good, lawful citizens go without treatment that to let this lifer go without a state-funded vagina.</p>
<p>Maybe she can afford one herself like everyone else, starting with all the funds her lawyers are spending on experts right now.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Sampson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14345</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Sampson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14345</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This really brings into play two concepts, the first being the whole idea of sex reassignment surgery, and the second being what level of medical treatment prisoners are entitled to (which obviously is at taxpayers&#039; expense).  The gender issue has been pretty well established as legitimate in many cases, however bizarre it may seem to many of us.  It seems like a reasonable position to take, however, to say that a certain level of medical necessity must be established before a prisoner is entitled to a procedure.

He/she is not necessarily out of line to ask for it, but I doubt the State is violating the constitution in saying no.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This really brings into play two concepts, the first being the whole idea of sex reassignment surgery, and the second being what level of medical treatment prisoners are entitled to (which obviously is at taxpayers&#8217; expense).  The gender issue has been pretty well established as legitimate in many cases, however bizarre it may seem to many of us.  It seems like a reasonable position to take, however, to say that a certain level of medical necessity must be established before a prisoner is entitled to a procedure.</p>
<p>He/she is not necessarily out of line to ask for it, but I doubt the State is violating the constitution in saying no.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter E. Wallis		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14344</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter E. Wallis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14344</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What next - bleaching negros? Solly Cholly, this is cosmetic surgery. Not on my dime.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What next &#8211; bleaching negros? Solly Cholly, this is cosmetic surgery. Not on my dime.</p>
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		<title>
		By: OBQuiet		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14343</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[OBQuiet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14343</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[But looking at this case:
&lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2004/06/ultimate_in_buyers_remorse.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https://www.overlawyered.com/2004/06/ultimate_in_buyers_remorse.html&lt;/a&gt;

I wonder how long until the DoC gets sued for allowing the Sex Change.

I seem to remember an article out of Johns Hopkins, one of the first to perform these operations, that showed no improvement in emotional outcome from the surgery and that they were choosing to stop performing them.


]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But looking at this case:<br />
<a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2004/06/ultimate_in_buyers_remorse.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.overlawyered.com/2004/06/ultimate_in_buyers_remorse.html</a></p>
<p>I wonder how long until the DoC gets sued for allowing the Sex Change.</p>
<p>I seem to remember an article out of Johns Hopkins, one of the first to perform these operations, that showed no improvement in emotional outcome from the surgery and that they were choosing to stop performing them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Alan Kellogg		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/comment-page-1/#comment-14342</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Kellogg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/index.php/2007/06/your-prisoner-sex-change-update/#comment-14342</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Folks, ask &lt;a href=&quot;http://aebrain.blogspot.com&quot;/ rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Zoe&lt;/a&gt; about mtf transiting. And she never planned on changing sex.

Normally the prospective transexual needs to go through counseling, then hormone therapy and passing as the other gender before the surgery takes place.

BTW, AA, God is perfect, the world aint. Things happen that wouldn&#039;t if the world were perfect. There are XX individuals who are male at birth. There are XY individuals who are female at birth. There are people out there who have ambigious genitalia, rudimentary or nonexistent genitalia, or mixed genitalia. Then you have those who&#039;s brains don&#039;t match their privates. Life isn&#039;t about what should be, life is about what is. That includes people with the wrong parts. We have the resources to correct such errors, God gave us free will, so I say we correct the mistakes and stop fussing about it. Or would you rather we enact laws against it and clog up the courts with useless prosecutions?
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, ask <a href="http://aebrain.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Zoe</a> about mtf transiting. And she never planned on changing sex.</p>
<p>Normally the prospective transexual needs to go through counseling, then hormone therapy and passing as the other gender before the surgery takes place.</p>
<p>BTW, AA, God is perfect, the world aint. Things happen that wouldn&#8217;t if the world were perfect. There are XX individuals who are male at birth. There are XY individuals who are female at birth. There are people out there who have ambigious genitalia, rudimentary or nonexistent genitalia, or mixed genitalia. Then you have those who&#8217;s brains don&#8217;t match their privates. Life isn&#8217;t about what should be, life is about what is. That includes people with the wrong parts. We have the resources to correct such errors, God gave us free will, so I say we correct the mistakes and stop fussing about it. Or would you rather we enact laws against it and clog up the courts with useless prosecutions?</p>
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