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	<title>
	Comments on: Must have been a typo	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:13:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		By: Update: Waukeen McCoy fees denied, sanctioned $25K		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-43455</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Update: Waukeen McCoy fees denied, sanctioned $25K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-43455</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] among the most egregious that this court has seen in almost 14 years on the bench.&#8221; Earlier: Nov. 14, 2007 (McCoy&#8217;s firm &#8220;billed [opponent] Federal Express for 23.5 hours of one of its [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] among the most egregious that this court has seen in almost 14 years on the bench.&#8221; Earlier: Nov. 14, 2007 (McCoy&#8217;s firm &#8220;billed [opponent] Federal Express for 23.5 hours of one of its [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous Attorney		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9623</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous Attorney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9623</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[At the risk of overprolonging the comments here, it might be pointed out that for attorneys to keep track of their time to the SECOND is both impractical and doesn&#039;t serve anyone&#039;s interests:  the attorney&#039;s or the client&#039;s (attorney would spend more time on this than work!). And some rounding up, as noted, is built in:  a phone call not quite six minutes still gets billed that way. The insurance company devising that system knows full well that they aren&#039;t going to get free service because a phone call lasted five minutes and 59 seconds.

Compounding all this is the slight absurdity of assuming that you can capture attorney work in such exacting time increments. If you wake up in the middle of the night and think for a few minutes about what to do on a case, that&#039;s legitimate work, but no attorney ever bills for &quot;woke up in middle of night and decided to make a motion for X.&quot; Nor do I know of any attorneys who make sure to subract the three seconds they had a fleeting thought about where to eat lunch while working on a motion that&#039;s taking them all day.

Lots of lawyer and billing abuses out there, sure, but I don&#039;t see the nickel-and-dime splicing here as among the worst.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of overprolonging the comments here, it might be pointed out that for attorneys to keep track of their time to the SECOND is both impractical and doesn&#8217;t serve anyone&#8217;s interests:  the attorney&#8217;s or the client&#8217;s (attorney would spend more time on this than work!). And some rounding up, as noted, is built in:  a phone call not quite six minutes still gets billed that way. The insurance company devising that system knows full well that they aren&#8217;t going to get free service because a phone call lasted five minutes and 59 seconds.</p>
<p>Compounding all this is the slight absurdity of assuming that you can capture attorney work in such exacting time increments. If you wake up in the middle of the night and think for a few minutes about what to do on a case, that&#8217;s legitimate work, but no attorney ever bills for &#8220;woke up in middle of night and decided to make a motion for X.&#8221; Nor do I know of any attorneys who make sure to subract the three seconds they had a fleeting thought about where to eat lunch while working on a motion that&#8217;s taking them all day.</p>
<p>Lots of lawyer and billing abuses out there, sure, but I don&#8217;t see the nickel-and-dime splicing here as among the worst.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Barney		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9622</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9622</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, Jay, there may just be a case for a massive class-action overbilling suit (if any attorney dare bring it, against fellow attorneys.)   So, “.2 hours can represent anywhere between 7 and 12 minutes.”  It can?  I have heard this rationale—that any minute “or fraction thereof” will count for the next billable fraction.  Let’s see how that works.

0.1 of billable time represents one-tenth of an hour, or six minutes.  So, what you say is that if an attorney works 0.1 plus a second (six minutes and a fraction) he/she bills for 0.2 hours or twelve minutes?  It’s fairer this way:  if an attorney works less than three minutes on a task he/she bills 0.0 and notes the time accordingly; if he works from three to just under six minutes the time is legitimately 0.1; six to eight and a fraction (round down) is also 0.1 but nine to twelve is 0.2—so on average every minute is billed fairly to the client.  So on and so forth.

What you propose is that for every six minutes plus one second the attorney bills 0.2 (twelve minutes.)  Not fair.  That means, on average for every nine minutes (half point between six and twelve minutes) of work the attorney bills twelve minutes (0.2) of time.  At $200/hr that’s averaging $10 overbilling for each hour.   Hey kids, can you say “class action?”  I knew you could!

These shenanigans lead to billing 0.1 or 0.2 ($20 or $40, thank you insurance defense attorneys, and others) for leaving a voice message or whatnot.  That’s B.S.

Does the American Bar Association have an ethics opinion on this?  I’d like to know.  But, I reason that if any other profession would on average bill twelve minutes for nine minutes of work would get sued at the drop of a hat.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Jay, there may just be a case for a massive class-action overbilling suit (if any attorney dare bring it, against fellow attorneys.)   So, “.2 hours can represent anywhere between 7 and 12 minutes.”  It can?  I have heard this rationale—that any minute “or fraction thereof” will count for the next billable fraction.  Let’s see how that works.</p>
<p>0.1 of billable time represents one-tenth of an hour, or six minutes.  So, what you say is that if an attorney works 0.1 plus a second (six minutes and a fraction) he/she bills for 0.2 hours or twelve minutes?  It’s fairer this way:  if an attorney works less than three minutes on a task he/she bills 0.0 and notes the time accordingly; if he works from three to just under six minutes the time is legitimately 0.1; six to eight and a fraction (round down) is also 0.1 but nine to twelve is 0.2—so on average every minute is billed fairly to the client.  So on and so forth.</p>
<p>What you propose is that for every six minutes plus one second the attorney bills 0.2 (twelve minutes.)  Not fair.  That means, on average for every nine minutes (half point between six and twelve minutes) of work the attorney bills twelve minutes (0.2) of time.  At $200/hr that’s averaging $10 overbilling for each hour.   Hey kids, can you say “class action?”  I knew you could!</p>
<p>These shenanigans lead to billing 0.1 or 0.2 ($20 or $40, thank you insurance defense attorneys, and others) for leaving a voice message or whatnot.  That’s B.S.</p>
<p>Does the American Bar Association have an ethics opinion on this?  I’d like to know.  But, I reason that if any other profession would on average bill twelve minutes for nine minutes of work would get sued at the drop of a hat.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous Attorney		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9621</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous Attorney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9621</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jasen, some attorneys... just... think... more... slooowly.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jasen, some attorneys&#8230; just&#8230; think&#8230; more&#8230; slooowly.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jay Wilson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9620</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay Wilson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9620</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[actually, .2 hours can represent anywhere between 7 and 12 minutes.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>actually, .2 hours can represent anywhere between 7 and 12 minutes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Barney		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9619</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9619</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Anonymous, thanks for the feedback.  I agree insurance defense work in many venues is in the range you suggest.  I didn&#039;t mean to suggest they made $500+/hr but was referring to the fee request in the linked story.  And my &quot;highway robbery&quot; comment was more directed at the $575/hr attorney, not something under $200.

I can&#039;t entirely agree with your billing analysis, though, &quot;12 minutes to review the file, formulate your thoughts, leave the message, and memo the same.&quot;

What?  12 minutes to review a file that I already paid the attorney to know in the first place?  Formulate your thoughts?  Come on, now.

Now, maybe in some instances this may be reasonable if the litigation is sufficiently complex, but having been on the receiving end of such voicemails and later bills I know darn well what was and was not involved in leaving a message and it does not take 12 minutes.


]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous, thanks for the feedback.  I agree insurance defense work in many venues is in the range you suggest.  I didn&#8217;t mean to suggest they made $500+/hr but was referring to the fee request in the linked story.  And my &#8220;highway robbery&#8221; comment was more directed at the $575/hr attorney, not something under $200.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t entirely agree with your billing analysis, though, &#8220;12 minutes to review the file, formulate your thoughts, leave the message, and memo the same.&#8221;</p>
<p>What?  12 minutes to review a file that I already paid the attorney to know in the first place?  Formulate your thoughts?  Come on, now.</p>
<p>Now, maybe in some instances this may be reasonable if the litigation is sufficiently complex, but having been on the receiving end of such voicemails and later bills I know darn well what was and was not involved in leaving a message and it does not take 12 minutes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sir Reg		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9618</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sir Reg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9618</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Any actual lawyers commenting here?  I&#039;ve worked as many as 60 hours non-stop.  24-36 hour non-stop stretches, while not exactly routine, are hardly shocking.  Thats not to say billing fraud isn&#039;t rampant, however....


]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any actual lawyers commenting here?  I&#8217;ve worked as many as 60 hours non-stop.  24-36 hour non-stop stretches, while not exactly routine, are hardly shocking.  Thats not to say billing fraud isn&#8217;t rampant, however&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous Attorney		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9617</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous Attorney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9617</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jason, the vast majority of insurance defense attorneys DO NOT charge $575 an hour. Try $100-$200. There are probably places where the insurance defense guys are charging LESS than $100/hour - what my plumber charges. And billing 12 minutes for a leaving a voicemail is entirely appropriate where it takes 12 minutes to review the file, formulate your thoughts, leave the message, and memo the same.

So while I understand that defense attorneys don&#039;t escape your criticism (and the criticism that tort reform, if strong, would cut into their business, too), AND conceding that the billable hours system has its problems, calling insurance defenders &quot;highway robbers&quot; is way off. Even a white-shoe firm charging in the $400s for a direct-representation products liability case, it should be noted, didn&#039;t START the lawsuit.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, the vast majority of insurance defense attorneys DO NOT charge $575 an hour. Try $100-$200. There are probably places where the insurance defense guys are charging LESS than $100/hour &#8211; what my plumber charges. And billing 12 minutes for a leaving a voicemail is entirely appropriate where it takes 12 minutes to review the file, formulate your thoughts, leave the message, and memo the same.</p>
<p>So while I understand that defense attorneys don&#8217;t escape your criticism (and the criticism that tort reform, if strong, would cut into their business, too), AND conceding that the billable hours system has its problems, calling insurance defenders &#8220;highway robbers&#8221; is way off. Even a white-shoe firm charging in the $400s for a direct-representation products liability case, it should be noted, didn&#8217;t START the lawsuit.</p>
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		<title>
		By: demosthenes.or.locke		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9616</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[demosthenes.or.locke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9616</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, technically, you can bill 24.5 hours in a day if you spend part of the day working during a flight from east to west.  The time change adds additional hours to the day, right?
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, technically, you can bill 24.5 hours in a day if you spend part of the day working during a flight from east to west.  The time change adds additional hours to the day, right?</p>
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		<title>
		By: save_the_rustbelt		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/11/must-have-been-a-typo/comment-page-1/#comment-9615</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[save_the_rustbelt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5549#comment-9615</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[During the legendary 7 year IBM antitrust trial, associates at the defense firm had a contest to see who could bill the most hours in one day.

Several tied at 24 hours.

One enterpresing associate booked a flight to California, worked in the office, the cab, in the airport and on the flight, and due to the time change billed 27 hours in one day.

I think billing fraud is probably rampant at the big name firms, and corporate America goes along to get the brains and names.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>During the legendary 7 year IBM antitrust trial, associates at the defense firm had a contest to see who could bill the most hours in one day.</p>
<p>Several tied at 24 hours.</p>
<p>One enterpresing associate booked a flight to California, worked in the office, the cab, in the airport and on the flight, and due to the time change billed 27 hours in one day.</p>
<p>I think billing fraud is probably rampant at the big name firms, and corporate America goes along to get the brains and names.</p>
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