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	<title>
	Comments on: &#8220;Halliburton&#8221;, gang rape, and fear of arbitration: the Jamie Leigh Jones case	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 01:41:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9825</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9825</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The entire lefty-blogosphere is repeating the identical &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/10/behind_those_unfair_arbitratio.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bogus arbitration statistics&lt;/a&gt; we refuted months ago.  Lenders prevail against debtors in court 96% to 99% of the time.  Consumers actually have more protections in arbitration: if a consumer fails to respond to a court notice, the court can issue a default judgment.  In an arbitration, the arbitrator cannot simply issue a default, but has to consider the evidence.

Rather than simply parrot the misleading arguments Public Citizen puts out, why not look at the sources we cite in the multiple posts linked to from the article?
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The entire lefty-blogosphere is repeating the identical <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/10/behind_those_unfair_arbitratio.html" rel="nofollow">bogus arbitration statistics</a> we refuted months ago.  Lenders prevail against debtors in court 96% to 99% of the time.  Consumers actually have more protections in arbitration: if a consumer fails to respond to a court notice, the court can issue a default judgment.  In an arbitration, the arbitrator cannot simply issue a default, but has to consider the evidence.</p>
<p>Rather than simply parrot the misleading arguments Public Citizen puts out, why not look at the sources we cite in the multiple posts linked to from the article?</p>
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		<title>
		By: SLEZE		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9824</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SLEZE]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9824</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot; It&#039;s not true that arbitrators stop getting arbitration work if they legitimately find in favor of the consumer: indeed, consumers in contested cases win more often in arbitration than they do in jury trials.&quot;

Both of those statements conflict with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;safe=off&amp;client=opera&amp;rls=en&amp;hs=4jG&amp;q=arbitration+in+favor+of+consumer&amp;btnG=Search&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;articles I have read time and time again&lt;/a&gt;.  So are you wrong or is the entire lefty-blogosphere wrong?
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; It&#8217;s not true that arbitrators stop getting arbitration work if they legitimately find in favor of the consumer: indeed, consumers in contested cases win more often in arbitration than they do in jury trials.&#8221;</p>
<p>Both of those statements conflict with <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;safe=off&#038;client=opera&#038;rls=en&#038;hs=4jG&#038;q=arbitration+in+favor+of+consumer&#038;btnG=Search" rel="nofollow">articles I have read time and time again</a>.  So are you wrong or is the entire lefty-blogosphere wrong?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9823</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9823</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve clarified the sentence: mandatory binding arbitration helps consumers.  It&#039;s not true that arbitrators stop getting arbitration work if they legitimately find in favor of the consumer: indeed, consumers in contested cases win more often in arbitration than they do in jury trials.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve clarified the sentence: mandatory binding arbitration helps consumers.  It&#8217;s not true that arbitrators stop getting arbitration work if they legitimately find in favor of the consumer: indeed, consumers in contested cases win more often in arbitration than they do in jury trials.</p>
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		<title>
		By: SLEZE		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9822</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SLEZE]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9822</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;because arbitration helps consumers, and Consumerist should care more about consumers than the trial lawyers who are lobbying for an anti-consumer law.)&quot;

I think the Consumerist agrees that arbitration definately has a place in the world but does binding MANDATORY arbitration help consumers?  When the arbitration &quot;judges&quot; stop getting arbitration work if they ever find in favor of the consumer, I think that implies an unfair advantage to the business over the consumer.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;because arbitration helps consumers, and Consumerist should care more about consumers than the trial lawyers who are lobbying for an anti-consumer law.)&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the Consumerist agrees that arbitration definately has a place in the world but does binding MANDATORY arbitration help consumers?  When the arbitration &#8220;judges&#8221; stop getting arbitration work if they ever find in favor of the consumer, I think that implies an unfair advantage to the business over the consumer.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brooks Schuelke		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9821</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brooks Schuelke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9821</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think you short-change the plaintiff&#039;s response.  From looking at the docs, it appears that Beaumont was an acceptable choice.  Having the court move the case to Houston based on convenience of the parties doesn&#039;t make the original choice wrong or ridiculous.  In fact, you can certainly understand how it might be ridiculous to file a motion to transfer based on convenience knowing the lay of the land.  Depending on where you&#039;re driving from, Houston and Beaumont are probably an hour to an hour and a half from one another. Going to Beaumont for the random hearing is not a huge inconvenience for any of the parties.

Thanks, and keep up the good dialogue.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you short-change the plaintiff&#8217;s response.  From looking at the docs, it appears that Beaumont was an acceptable choice.  Having the court move the case to Houston based on convenience of the parties doesn&#8217;t make the original choice wrong or ridiculous.  In fact, you can certainly understand how it might be ridiculous to file a motion to transfer based on convenience knowing the lay of the land.  Depending on where you&#8217;re driving from, Houston and Beaumont are probably an hour to an hour and a half from one another. Going to Beaumont for the random hearing is not a huge inconvenience for any of the parties.</p>
<p>Thanks, and keep up the good dialogue.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jkoerner		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9820</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jkoerner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9820</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree with Ted. The plaintiff basically argues against a forum non conviens motion by saying that the plaintiff did choose a proper forum. Of course, that is not in dispute, the defense agrees with that point in its motion. The D just says everyone would be better off in the Southern District, and from the facts given, the defense appears to be right.

The response was childish and perhaps even a bit misleading as to what the law actually holds.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Ted. The plaintiff basically argues against a forum non conviens motion by saying that the plaintiff did choose a proper forum. Of course, that is not in dispute, the defense agrees with that point in its motion. The D just says everyone would be better off in the Southern District, and from the facts given, the defense appears to be right.</p>
<p>The response was childish and perhaps even a bit misleading as to what the law actually holds.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9819</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9819</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mahlon: As I noted, the venue motion was granted, and the case was transferred to the Southern District.  A plaintiff&#039;s forum choice gets no deference when there is no reason to file the case in that forum.  I stand by my characterization.  See also &lt;a href=&quot;http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/texas/txedce/1:2007cv00295/103217/21/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the defendants&#039; brief&lt;/a&gt;.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mahlon: As I noted, the venue motion was granted, and the case was transferred to the Southern District.  A plaintiff&#8217;s forum choice gets no deference when there is no reason to file the case in that forum.  I stand by my characterization.  See also <a href="http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/texas/txedce/1:2007cv00295/103217/21/" rel="nofollow">the defendants&#8217; brief</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: J		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9818</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9818</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the most objective analysis I’ve seen on this.  A few thoughts:

Plaintiff apparently resides in CA, not Houston.

I think your post underestimates the extent to which a Plaintiff&#039;s lawyer can undermine an individual&#039;s legitimate claims through sheer incompetence and/or credibility-destroying sensationalism.

Adding Halliburton as a Defendant doesn&#039;t seem clearly ridiculous considering potential corporate veil issues, the possibility that some John Does may have been Halliburton employees, etc…  (Listing every KBR entity, on the other hand, is absurd).

Re: the ‘locked in a container’ allegation—In the Complaint she alleges that she was placed in a trailer with a bed, bath, etc…, but (the horror!) no phone or TV.  This seems to be entirely appropriate—they couldn’t very well send her back to the barracks where she claims to have been raped.

In a case like this, any discovery limits in arbitration will likely be negligible.  The only practical effects of arbitration are that filings won’t be immediately (or possibly ever) public, potential damages (i.e., settlement value) will be limited by the absence of a jury (the reason plaintiffs&#039; lawyers hate arbitration), and appellate review is limited (arguably a bigger concern for employers than employees).
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the most objective analysis I’ve seen on this.  A few thoughts:</p>
<p>Plaintiff apparently resides in CA, not Houston.</p>
<p>I think your post underestimates the extent to which a Plaintiff&#8217;s lawyer can undermine an individual&#8217;s legitimate claims through sheer incompetence and/or credibility-destroying sensationalism.</p>
<p>Adding Halliburton as a Defendant doesn&#8217;t seem clearly ridiculous considering potential corporate veil issues, the possibility that some John Does may have been Halliburton employees, etc…  (Listing every KBR entity, on the other hand, is absurd).</p>
<p>Re: the ‘locked in a container’ allegation—In the Complaint she alleges that she was placed in a trailer with a bed, bath, etc…, but (the horror!) no phone or TV.  This seems to be entirely appropriate—they couldn’t very well send her back to the barracks where she claims to have been raped.</p>
<p>In a case like this, any discovery limits in arbitration will likely be negligible.  The only practical effects of arbitration are that filings won’t be immediately (or possibly ever) public, potential damages (i.e., settlement value) will be limited by the absence of a jury (the reason plaintiffs&#8217; lawyers hate arbitration), and appellate review is limited (arguably a bigger concern for employers than employees).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mahlon		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9817</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mahlon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9817</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I post with reference to Plaintiff&#039;s memo contra change of venue. I speak not to the merits of the base argument, i.e. whether venue was proper in Beaumont, but to your characterization of the brief as amateurish.  If the venue provision is as straight forward as cited in Plaintiff&#039;s brief, I don&#039;t see the problem.

Frankly, I like this type of response.  The brief addresses the other side of &quot;ugly-lawyering&quot; - the one this cite seldom addresses - that of defense counsel spending time and money on petty procedural matters.  Haliburton&#039;s counsel is whining.  Whining about driving a little further, about paper documents which will never be shared in paper form, about injustice - when such is not the case.  Plaintiff&#039;s counsel simply calls them on it.  And I think he did so well.

It&#039;s not like the Plaintiff filed the case in San Antonio, where, if the venue provision is as liberal as it appears, he could have.

If forum shopping is permitted by legislation, then the Plaintiff gets to choose where to file.

Of course, if the venue issue is not as simple as Plaintiff would have us believe, then all bets are off.  I just wish you would take your blinders off to the abuses of defense counsel.  After all, they&#039;re trial lawyers, too.




]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I post with reference to Plaintiff&#8217;s memo contra change of venue. I speak not to the merits of the base argument, i.e. whether venue was proper in Beaumont, but to your characterization of the brief as amateurish.  If the venue provision is as straight forward as cited in Plaintiff&#8217;s brief, I don&#8217;t see the problem.</p>
<p>Frankly, I like this type of response.  The brief addresses the other side of &#8220;ugly-lawyering&#8221; &#8211; the one this cite seldom addresses &#8211; that of defense counsel spending time and money on petty procedural matters.  Haliburton&#8217;s counsel is whining.  Whining about driving a little further, about paper documents which will never be shared in paper form, about injustice &#8211; when such is not the case.  Plaintiff&#8217;s counsel simply calls them on it.  And I think he did so well.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not like the Plaintiff filed the case in San Antonio, where, if the venue provision is as liberal as it appears, he could have.</p>
<p>If forum shopping is permitted by legislation, then the Plaintiff gets to choose where to file.</p>
<p>Of course, if the venue issue is not as simple as Plaintiff would have us believe, then all bets are off.  I just wish you would take your blinders off to the abuses of defense counsel.  After all, they&#8217;re trial lawyers, too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous Attorney		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2007/12/halliburton-gang-rape-and-fear-of-arbitration-the-jamie-leigh-jones-case/comment-page-1/#comment-9816</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous Attorney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5636#comment-9816</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey! It&#039;s a reverse Paula Jones!
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey! It&#8217;s a reverse Paula Jones!</p>
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