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	Comments on: Catholic hospital won&#8217;t perform transgender-related surgery	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:02:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: No conscience clause for California fertility doctors		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-27582</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[No conscience clause for California fertility doctors]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-27582</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] involving a lesbian applicant. As Bookworm Room points out (Aug. 19), and as we noted in the earlier Bay Area conscience controversy over gender-switch breast surgery, it makes a practical difference [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] involving a lesbian applicant. As Bookworm Room points out (Aug. 19), and as we noted in the earlier Bay Area conscience controversy over gender-switch breast surgery, it makes a practical difference [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10393</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10393</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Can a customer also enter a Muslim-owned grocery and demand that they sell pork products?&lt;/i&gt;

Yes - if they already sell them to, say, everybody except Jews.

There are legal limits in religious practices, though not belief. Human Sacrifice may be a culturally and religiously mandated practice in the worship of Huitzilopochtli, but it&#039;s still illegal to practice it.

And John - I just finished a 20-month legal fight just to get a passport. I got one, eventually, and an apology for the inconvenience that meant that others in my situation won&#039;t get the same  treatment.

I was originally offered a document good for leaving the country, but not re-entry, even though I&#039;m a citizen. We&#039;re used to this kind of thing, but we don&#039;t accept it any more.

Marti&#039;s a &quot;she&quot; too, not a &quot;he&quot;.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Can a customer also enter a Muslim-owned grocery and demand that they sell pork products?</i></p>
<p>Yes &#8211; if they already sell them to, say, everybody except Jews.</p>
<p>There are legal limits in religious practices, though not belief. Human Sacrifice may be a culturally and religiously mandated practice in the worship of Huitzilopochtli, but it&#8217;s still illegal to practice it.</p>
<p>And John &#8211; I just finished a 20-month legal fight just to get a passport. I got one, eventually, and an apology for the inconvenience that meant that others in my situation won&#8217;t get the same  treatment.</p>
<p>I was originally offered a document good for leaving the country, but not re-entry, even though I&#8217;m a citizen. We&#8217;re used to this kind of thing, but we don&#8217;t accept it any more.</p>
<p>Marti&#8217;s a &#8220;she&#8221; too, not a &#8220;he&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Rohan		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10392</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Rohan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10392</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The debate over who is legally a male or female is interesting, but it is beside the point here.

The point is, what business does court have determining a Church&#039;s religious beliefs?

To Marti - if I walk into a Muslim owned grocery or a kosher shop, can I demand that they sell me pork products? Can I take them to court if they refuse?
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The debate over who is legally a male or female is interesting, but it is beside the point here.</p>
<p>The point is, what business does court have determining a Church&#8217;s religious beliefs?</p>
<p>To Marti &#8211; if I walk into a Muslim owned grocery or a kosher shop, can I demand that they sell me pork products? Can I take them to court if they refuse?</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Rohan		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10391</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Rohan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 04:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10391</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think you folks are wasting FAR too much time splitting hairs over legal definitions of sex/gender.

What difference does it make if Hastings is a man, woman, or neuter?

From a moral standpoint, the bottom line is that barring a life threatening emergency, courts shouldn&#039;t be able to force a Church to do something against it&#039;s religious beliefs. This is elective surgery, and non-life threatening.

From a legal standpoint, it&#039;s interesting that Marti thinks his legal statement about &quot;all being equal&quot; only applies to patients in a hospital, and not to the people that work there. They also have full rights to practice their religion under the law. Can a customer also enter a Muslim-owned grocery and demand that they sell pork products?
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you folks are wasting FAR too much time splitting hairs over legal definitions of sex/gender.</p>
<p>What difference does it make if Hastings is a man, woman, or neuter?</p>
<p>From a moral standpoint, the bottom line is that barring a life threatening emergency, courts shouldn&#8217;t be able to force a Church to do something against it&#8217;s religious beliefs. This is elective surgery, and non-life threatening.</p>
<p>From a legal standpoint, it&#8217;s interesting that Marti thinks his legal statement about &#8220;all being equal&#8221; only applies to patients in a hospital, and not to the people that work there. They also have full rights to practice their religion under the law. Can a customer also enter a Muslim-owned grocery and demand that they sell pork products?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10390</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10390</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Supremacy Clause - you&#039;ve defined &quot;male&quot; in a very creative way. It would still include vasectomised men, as  sperm could be extracted with a syringe. But it wouldn&#039;t include sterile men, nor pre-pubescent boys, nor some rare men and rarer women who have been biological fathers, but also have ovarian tissue containing fertile eggs.

Ms Hastings, by your definition, is not male. She&#039;s post-op.

It&#039;s not that simple. And people like myself whose apparent sex changes naturally really bollix up the system. To have my legal sex depend upon whether the anomalous tissue removed from me 27 years ago contained fertile eggs or not shows what bizarre and surreal results such facile definitions as yours produce.

Care to define &quot;Female&quot; now?    Unless you&#039;re very careful, you&#039;ll end up with people neither, or both. It&#039;s genuinely not that simple.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Supremacy Clause &#8211; you&#8217;ve defined &#8220;male&#8221; in a very creative way. It would still include vasectomised men, as  sperm could be extracted with a syringe. But it wouldn&#8217;t include sterile men, nor pre-pubescent boys, nor some rare men and rarer women who have been biological fathers, but also have ovarian tissue containing fertile eggs.</p>
<p>Ms Hastings, by your definition, is not male. She&#8217;s post-op.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that simple. And people like myself whose apparent sex changes naturally really bollix up the system. To have my legal sex depend upon whether the anomalous tissue removed from me 27 years ago contained fertile eggs or not shows what bizarre and surreal results such facile definitions as yours produce.</p>
<p>Care to define &#8220;Female&#8221; now?    Unless you&#8217;re very careful, you&#8217;ll end up with people neither, or both. It&#8217;s genuinely not that simple.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Alexander		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10389</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10389</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To me, the real question is, who in their right mind would want to have surgery in a hospital that didn&#039;t want him/her?  I want the best care possible, and I don&#039;t expect that where I am unwelcome.  It sounds more like someone trying to make a political and legal point, rather than really looking for medical care.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, the real question is, who in their right mind would want to have surgery in a hospital that didn&#8217;t want him/her?  I want the best care possible, and I don&#8217;t expect that where I am unwelcome.  It sounds more like someone trying to make a political and legal point, rather than really looking for medical care.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Supremacy Claus		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10388</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Supremacy Claus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10388</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Zoe: That list of factors sounds like lawyer make work by needless argument, an attempt to obfuscate, and pandering to a favored group. I assume, the factors also require &quot;balancing,&quot; a lawyer synonym for arbitrary personal preference.

Over 140 times, the Supreme Court has held, the dictionary meaning is the legal meaning of a word.

Any statutory definition of gender, that Marti cites, deviating from the dictionary definition violates dozens of Supreme Court decisions.

Here is the dictionary definition of male:

&quot;Of or pertaining to the sex that begets or procreates young, or (in a wider sense) to the sex that produces spermatozoa,&quot;

If a being can fertilize but cannot bear fruit, you have a male. Other definitions are self-deception, of which a court should have no part.

The index of discrimination is, if a heterosexual male demands a huge breast augmentation, would the hospital refuse? If the answer is yes, then it applies to the plaintiff, and no discrimination has taken place.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zoe: That list of factors sounds like lawyer make work by needless argument, an attempt to obfuscate, and pandering to a favored group. I assume, the factors also require &#8220;balancing,&#8221; a lawyer synonym for arbitrary personal preference.</p>
<p>Over 140 times, the Supreme Court has held, the dictionary meaning is the legal meaning of a word.</p>
<p>Any statutory definition of gender, that Marti cites, deviating from the dictionary definition violates dozens of Supreme Court decisions.</p>
<p>Here is the dictionary definition of male:</p>
<p>&#8220;Of or pertaining to the sex that begets or procreates young, or (in a wider sense) to the sex that produces spermatozoa,&#8221;</p>
<p>If a being can fertilize but cannot bear fruit, you have a male. Other definitions are self-deception, of which a court should have no part.</p>
<p>The index of discrimination is, if a heterosexual male demands a huge breast augmentation, would the hospital refuse? If the answer is yes, then it applies to the plaintiff, and no discrimination has taken place.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10387</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10387</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[They do allow breast augmentation surgeries to be performed there. The problem is not the procedure, it&#039;s the person.
And the official Vatican pronouncement on the subject, which was sent &lt;i&gt;sub secretum&lt;/i&gt; in 2000, allowed transgender surgery in some cases. From &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=599&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Catholic News Service&lt;/a&gt; : &lt;blockquote&gt;The Vatican document&#039;s specific points include:
* An analysis of the moral licitness of &quot;sex-change&quot; operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will &quot;cure&quot; the patient&#039;s internal turmoil.&lt;/blockquote&gt;For an extensive discussion in the comments section, together with references to numerous medical papers and canon law   round the year 1080, see the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=b99ab893-0b1a-4ed4-950f-08df39c2b4c3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;California Catholic Daily&lt;/a&gt;.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They do allow breast augmentation surgeries to be performed there. The problem is not the procedure, it&#8217;s the person.<br />
And the official Vatican pronouncement on the subject, which was sent <i>sub secretum</i> in 2000, allowed transgender surgery in some cases. From <a href="http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=599" rel="nofollow">Catholic News Service</a> : </p>
<blockquote><p>The Vatican document&#8217;s specific points include:<br />
* An analysis of the moral licitness of &#8220;sex-change&#8221; operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will &#8220;cure&#8221; the patient&#8217;s internal turmoil.</p></blockquote>
<p>For an extensive discussion in the comments section, together with references to numerous medical papers and canon law   round the year 1080, see the <a href="http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=b99ab893-0b1a-4ed4-950f-08df39c2b4c3" rel="nofollow">California Catholic Daily</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: cecil		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10386</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cecil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10386</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Are any breast augmentation surgeries performed at the hospital in question?  If they ban the procedure regardless of patient, then no problem.  If they ban it for this particular patient and not others without an extenuating medical reason, then they have a problem.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are any breast augmentation surgeries performed at the hospital in question?  If they ban the procedure regardless of patient, then no problem.  If they ban it for this particular patient and not others without an extenuating medical reason, then they have a problem.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/01/catholic-hospital-wont-perform-transgender-related-surgery/comment-page-1/#comment-10385</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/wpblog/?p=5767#comment-10385</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The problem is not so much the basic question of law, but the inordinate number of different answers - some of the quite bizarre - in different jurisdictions. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/DeakinLRev/2004/22.html#Heading437&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Deakin Law Review 22 (2004) &lt;i&gt;Re Kevin In Perspective&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;At paragraph [136]: ‘I agree with Ms Wallbank that in the present context the word &quot;man&quot; should be given its ordinary contemporary meaning. In determining that meaning, it is relevant to have regard to many things that were the subject of evidence and submissions. They include the context of the legislation, the body of case law on the meaning of &quot;man&quot; and similar words, the purpose of the legislation, and the current legal, social and medical environment. These matters are considered in the course of the judgment.  I believe that this approach is in accordance with common sense, principles of statutory interpretation, and with all or virtually all of the authorities in which the issue of sexual identity has arisen. As Professor Gooren and a colleague put it:-&lt;blockquote&gt;“There should be no escape for medical and legal authorities that these definitions ought to be corrected and updated when new information becomes available, particularly when our outdated definitions bring suffering to some of our fellow human beings”.’&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Usually, some combination of the following is considered:&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;Body shape, esp. genitalia at birth&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Body shape, esp. genitalia currently&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Chromosomes&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Endocrine system&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Psychology&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Social  Role&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Documentation&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;
It&#039;s normally clear within a  jurisdiction what sex any particular person is. Usually. It would be clear in this case. It wouldn&#039;t be in mine, alas. Not in California. I know I&#039;m female, but proving it could be tricky. Maybe they should just ask my OB/GYN.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is not so much the basic question of law, but the inordinate number of different answers &#8211; some of the quite bizarre &#8211; in different jurisdictions. See <a href="http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/DeakinLRev/2004/22.html#Heading437" rel="nofollow">Deakin Law Review 22 (2004) <i>Re Kevin In Perspective</i></a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;At paragraph [136]: ‘I agree with Ms Wallbank that in the present context the word &#8220;man&#8221; should be given its ordinary contemporary meaning. In determining that meaning, it is relevant to have regard to many things that were the subject of evidence and submissions. They include the context of the legislation, the body of case law on the meaning of &#8220;man&#8221; and similar words, the purpose of the legislation, and the current legal, social and medical environment. These matters are considered in the course of the judgment.  I believe that this approach is in accordance with common sense, principles of statutory interpretation, and with all or virtually all of the authorities in which the issue of sexual identity has arisen. As Professor Gooren and a colleague put it:-</p>
<blockquote><p>“There should be no escape for medical and legal authorities that these definitions ought to be corrected and updated when new information becomes available, particularly when our outdated definitions bring suffering to some of our fellow human beings”.’</p></blockquote>
<p>Usually, some combination of the following is considered:</p>
<ol>
<li>Body shape, esp. genitalia at birth</li>
<li>Body shape, esp. genitalia currently</li>
<li>Chromosomes</li>
<li>Endocrine system</li>
<li>Psychology</li>
<li>Social  Role</li>
<li>Documentation</li>
</ol>
<p>It&#8217;s normally clear within a  jurisdiction what sex any particular person is. Usually. It would be clear in this case. It wouldn&#8217;t be in mine, alas. Not in California. I know I&#8217;m female, but proving it could be tricky. Maybe they should just ask my OB/GYN.</p></blockquote>
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