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	Comments on: That day in court	</title>
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	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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		<title>
		By: Ted Frank		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-22679</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-22679</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You&#039;ve misquoted Rule 6(B) (which merely states that service &lt;b&gt;can&lt;/b&gt; be under the FRCP, and sets out several other valid means of service), and you&#039;ve misstated the applicable law binding arbitrators.  This isn&#039;t the place for you to try to relitigate a case you&#039;ve already won.  But it does go to show how fair arbitration is when even a pro se defendant who doesn&#039;t understand what &quot;or&quot; means in a rule can defeat a big credit card company represented by attorneys.  A judge in a courthouse wouldn&#039;t have been that patient.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve misquoted Rule 6(B) (which merely states that service <b>can</b> be under the FRCP, and sets out several other valid means of service), and you&#8217;ve misstated the applicable law binding arbitrators.  This isn&#8217;t the place for you to try to relitigate a case you&#8217;ve already won.  But it does go to show how fair arbitration is when even a pro se defendant who doesn&#8217;t understand what &#8220;or&#8221; means in a rule can defeat a big credit card company represented by attorneys.  A judge in a courthouse wouldn&#8217;t have been that patient.</p>
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		<title>
		By: V		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-22676</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[V]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-22676</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That is what the problem is with Arbitration. 
A CA can violate all Federal Laws written to protect the consumer including the FDCPA and the FCRA and the NAF Rules ignore those violations and will still give them an award. That is not Justice to me.  I am not an example of winning anything, I lost 9 months fighting this claim that never should have been brought forth, as the Claim was served over 90 after it was filed, yet the Arbitrator did not dismiss it based on Rule 6-B(4) of the Code of Procedure saying service should be in accord with the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure of the United States or the rules of civil procedure. I read that service had to be within 90 days of the claim being filed, whether right or wrong that is all I could find for my local statutes. Six months down the road they want to give the CA more time to produce documents the CA said they had when they signed the claim. Why, when service was past 90 days? Because I was trapped into responding?  I seriously doubt that the Arbitrator would have given me more time to produce documents, had I signed a document saying I had those 6 months earlier. I am also sure that the CA would have objected and I would have been denied that same opportunity.  I cannot believe anyone can believe arbitration at the NAF is Fair when it concerns Collectors that pay them to make decisions. 
I am not any example it works.
I am an example it is too confusing and time consuming.
I did not win, I just avoided losing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is what the problem is with Arbitration.<br />
A CA can violate all Federal Laws written to protect the consumer including the FDCPA and the FCRA and the NAF Rules ignore those violations and will still give them an award. That is not Justice to me.  I am not an example of winning anything, I lost 9 months fighting this claim that never should have been brought forth, as the Claim was served over 90 after it was filed, yet the Arbitrator did not dismiss it based on Rule 6-B(4) of the Code of Procedure saying service should be in accord with the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure of the United States or the rules of civil procedure. I read that service had to be within 90 days of the claim being filed, whether right or wrong that is all I could find for my local statutes. Six months down the road they want to give the CA more time to produce documents the CA said they had when they signed the claim. Why, when service was past 90 days? Because I was trapped into responding?  I seriously doubt that the Arbitrator would have given me more time to produce documents, had I signed a document saying I had those 6 months earlier. I am also sure that the CA would have objected and I would have been denied that same opportunity.  I cannot believe anyone can believe arbitration at the NAF is Fair when it concerns Collectors that pay them to make decisions.<br />
I am not any example it works.<br />
I am an example it is too confusing and time consuming.<br />
I did not win, I just avoided losing.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted Frank		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-22671</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-22671</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The federal rules of civil procedure are for federal courts.  Arbitration is done under whatever code or rules of civil procedure the parties have agreed to, in this case the NAF Code of Procedure.  FRCP 26 is neither &quot;US Code&quot; nor applicable in arbitration, any more than the NAF Code of Procedure is applicable in federal courts.  See NAF Code of Procedure Rule 29.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The federal rules of civil procedure are for federal courts.  Arbitration is done under whatever code or rules of civil procedure the parties have agreed to, in this case the NAF Code of Procedure.  FRCP 26 is neither &#8220;US Code&#8221; nor applicable in arbitration, any more than the NAF Code of Procedure is applicable in federal courts.  See NAF Code of Procedure Rule 29.</p>
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		<title>
		By: V		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-22668</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[V]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-22668</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would like to respond to Ted Frank’s recent response regarding what I stated in my post under “The absent defendant”, but the ability to return a comment has been shut off or I can’t find it.  So I am responding here. 

Mr. Frank said “I have no idea what V is talking about with the “14 days under US Code Collection to review discovery documents.”) As noted above, V misstates the default rules for arbitration”

But below is what I found under the US Code Collection.  It just goes to prove to me that if I was mis-stating a rule of Arbitration, that Federal Law doesn’t apply in Arbitration.
I take what I read as Federal Law to heart and I understood it to say I had 14 days to review any discovery documents and make my Objections, should they be presented to the Arbitrator/Judge.
Like I said, I am not any attorney, I have no degree, I am just reading the law and taking it at its word.

TITLE 28 App. &#062; FEDERAL &#062; V. &#062; Rule 26
Rule 26. General Provisions Governing Discovery; Duty of Disclosure

(a) Required Disclosures; Methods to Discover Additional Matter. 
(1) Initial Disclosures. Except in categories of proceedings specified in Rule 26 (a)(1)(E), or to the extent otherwise stipulated or directed by order, a party must, without awaiting a discovery request, provide to other parties: 
(3) Pretrial Disclosures. In addition to the disclosures required by Rule 26 (a)(1) and (2), a party must provide to other parties and promptly file with the court the following information regarding the evidence that it may present at trial other than solely for impeachment:
Unless otherwise directed by the court, these disclosures must be made at least 30 days before trial. Within 14 days thereafter, unless a different time is specified by the court, a party may serve and promptly file a list disclosing (i) any objections to the use under Rule 32(a) of a deposition designated by another party under Rule 26 (a)(3)(B), and (ii) any objection, together with the grounds therefor, that may be made to the admissibility of materials identified under Rule 26 (a)(3)(C). Objections not so disclosed, other than objections under Rules 402 and 403 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, are waived unless excused by the court for good cause.

So did I misstate or misinterpret? Either way it is there and that is what I was stating.
V]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to respond to Ted Frank’s recent response regarding what I stated in my post under “The absent defendant”, but the ability to return a comment has been shut off or I can’t find it.  So I am responding here. </p>
<p>Mr. Frank said “I have no idea what V is talking about with the “14 days under US Code Collection to review discovery documents.”) As noted above, V misstates the default rules for arbitration”</p>
<p>But below is what I found under the US Code Collection.  It just goes to prove to me that if I was mis-stating a rule of Arbitration, that Federal Law doesn’t apply in Arbitration.<br />
I take what I read as Federal Law to heart and I understood it to say I had 14 days to review any discovery documents and make my Objections, should they be presented to the Arbitrator/Judge.<br />
Like I said, I am not any attorney, I have no degree, I am just reading the law and taking it at its word.</p>
<p>TITLE 28 App. &gt; FEDERAL &gt; V. &gt; Rule 26<br />
Rule 26. General Provisions Governing Discovery; Duty of Disclosure</p>
<p>(a) Required Disclosures; Methods to Discover Additional Matter.<br />
(1) Initial Disclosures. Except in categories of proceedings specified in Rule 26 (a)(1)(E), or to the extent otherwise stipulated or directed by order, a party must, without awaiting a discovery request, provide to other parties:<br />
(3) Pretrial Disclosures. In addition to the disclosures required by Rule 26 (a)(1) and (2), a party must provide to other parties and promptly file with the court the following information regarding the evidence that it may present at trial other than solely for impeachment:<br />
Unless otherwise directed by the court, these disclosures must be made at least 30 days before trial. Within 14 days thereafter, unless a different time is specified by the court, a party may serve and promptly file a list disclosing (i) any objections to the use under Rule 32(a) of a deposition designated by another party under Rule 26 (a)(3)(B), and (ii) any objection, together with the grounds therefor, that may be made to the admissibility of materials identified under Rule 26 (a)(3)(C). Objections not so disclosed, other than objections under Rules 402 and 403 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, are waived unless excused by the court for good cause.</p>
<p>So did I misstate or misinterpret? Either way it is there and that is what I was stating.<br />
V</p>
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		<title>
		By: VMS		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-21039</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VMS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-21039</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[By the way, the Talmudic way of picking an arbitration panel is for each side to pick an arbitrator and the two arbitrators then pick a third. Majority rules.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, the Talmudic way of picking an arbitration panel is for each side to pick an arbitrator and the two arbitrators then pick a third. Majority rules.</p>
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		<title>
		By: VMS		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-21038</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VMS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-21038</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mahlon:

Here is a case for you!

http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2005/2005_08095.htm

Please note that no one seems to argue preemption.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mahlon:</p>
<p>Here is a case for you!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2005/2005_08095.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2005/2005_08095.htm</a></p>
<p>Please note that no one seems to argue preemption.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted Frank		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-20993</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-20993</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mahlon, a lengthy discussion of the series of good-faith mistakes and bad-faith fraud and screwed-up government meddling that led to the latest spurt of mortgage defaults is well beyond the scope of this comments section, but they&#039;re sufficient to explaining the problem without resorting to irrationality.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mahlon, a lengthy discussion of the series of good-faith mistakes and bad-faith fraud and screwed-up government meddling that led to the latest spurt of mortgage defaults is well beyond the scope of this comments section, but they&#8217;re sufficient to explaining the problem without resorting to irrationality.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mahlon		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-20992</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mahlon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-20992</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[DBB - The simple fact is that most American consumers are not literate enough to understand any explanation about arbitration.  This is certainly true about a vast majority of the people who gets sued for consumer debts.  You can disclose all you want to these people, but you can&#039;t understand the disclosures for them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DBB &#8211; The simple fact is that most American consumers are not literate enough to understand any explanation about arbitration.  This is certainly true about a vast majority of the people who gets sued for consumer debts.  You can disclose all you want to these people, but you can&#8217;t understand the disclosures for them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mahlon		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-20990</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mahlon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-20990</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ted:  First, please don&#039;t use dirty words, like George Soros, on your blog.  It makes me feel all slimy.  

Second, don&#039;t misstate my position.  I never said arbitration was costing creditors more, at least on a net basis.  My position is that the out-of-pocket costs might be more, but the gain in collections more than offsets those additional expenses.  

Let me restate my position for clarity&#039;s sake.  Arbitration may be more expensive for creditors, but it provides the creditors with a better return.  In this regard I cannot disagree with you that the use of arbitration increases default recoveries, and thus, reduces default losses, thereby permitting creditors to minimize their costs and deliver lower cost services.  I just disagree with you on how that happens. 

Third, please define for me the difference between (1) being so severely incorrect about the future that there are, what, $200-300 billion in mortgage losses, and (2) being irrational.   If someone borrows a $1 million because he thinks he&#039;s going to win the lottery next week, is that uncertainty about the future, or irrationality?   I mistake nothing.  It is just a matter of degree.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted:  First, please don&#8217;t use dirty words, like George Soros, on your blog.  It makes me feel all slimy.  </p>
<p>Second, don&#8217;t misstate my position.  I never said arbitration was costing creditors more, at least on a net basis.  My position is that the out-of-pocket costs might be more, but the gain in collections more than offsets those additional expenses.  </p>
<p>Let me restate my position for clarity&#8217;s sake.  Arbitration may be more expensive for creditors, but it provides the creditors with a better return.  In this regard I cannot disagree with you that the use of arbitration increases default recoveries, and thus, reduces default losses, thereby permitting creditors to minimize their costs and deliver lower cost services.  I just disagree with you on how that happens. </p>
<p>Third, please define for me the difference between (1) being so severely incorrect about the future that there are, what, $200-300 billion in mortgage losses, and (2) being irrational.   If someone borrows a $1 million because he thinks he&#8217;s going to win the lottery next week, is that uncertainty about the future, or irrationality?   I mistake nothing.  It is just a matter of degree.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Disgusted Beyond Belief		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/06/that-day-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-20986</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Disgusted Beyond Belief]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7128#comment-20986</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would not think it would require micromanagement - simply require all arbitration agreements to allow each party to agree to who will arbitrate.  I don&#039;t think it would need much else on that point.  You already know the other bit I would like to see, which is allowing consumers in adhesion contracts to &quot;opt in&quot; - as simple as a checkbox - if the consumer wants to give up the right to go to court and go by arbitration instead, they can check the box.  

As I stated before, I have no problem with arbitration in general - I think arbitration is a great thing and can be much faster and cheaper than court in many instances (though not necessarily always).  I just objected to it being shoved down consumer&#039;s throats.  

Give them the option, and also educate consumers on the benefits of arbitration, and I&#039;m sure many will happily check that box.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would not think it would require micromanagement &#8211; simply require all arbitration agreements to allow each party to agree to who will arbitrate.  I don&#8217;t think it would need much else on that point.  You already know the other bit I would like to see, which is allowing consumers in adhesion contracts to &#8220;opt in&#8221; &#8211; as simple as a checkbox &#8211; if the consumer wants to give up the right to go to court and go by arbitration instead, they can check the box.  </p>
<p>As I stated before, I have no problem with arbitration in general &#8211; I think arbitration is a great thing and can be much faster and cheaper than court in many instances (though not necessarily always).  I just objected to it being shoved down consumer&#8217;s throats.  </p>
<p>Give them the option, and also educate consumers on the benefits of arbitration, and I&#8217;m sure many will happily check that box.</p>
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