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	<title>
	Comments on: Associations sued in cheerleader death	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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	<item>
		<title>
		By: Al Mac		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-36432</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Al Mac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 11:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-36432</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Are people finding sports that dull that they need to see scantily clad young girls (and boys) flying around. May i suggest that people start concentrating on watching the game and going to a strip club if they still require fulfilment of that kind. Let the kids go to gymnastics where the activities are far better controlled, with 1-1 supervision in most cases and professionaly qualified coaches. Children will do dangerous things because they look fun so will continue to want to be cheerleaders, especially with society making them think they are the prettiest and most elligable girls. As adults we need to ensure their safety and wellbeing.
I play rugby in Scotland, where there are no sports with cheerleaders at half time. Half time is for the athletes to get a breather and supporters to get another drink. Lets get back to the sport and stop trying to add glitz and glamour to what is effectivly a modern gladiators arena.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are people finding sports that dull that they need to see scantily clad young girls (and boys) flying around. May i suggest that people start concentrating on watching the game and going to a strip club if they still require fulfilment of that kind. Let the kids go to gymnastics where the activities are far better controlled, with 1-1 supervision in most cases and professionaly qualified coaches. Children will do dangerous things because they look fun so will continue to want to be cheerleaders, especially with society making them think they are the prettiest and most elligable girls. As adults we need to ensure their safety and wellbeing.<br />
I play rugby in Scotland, where there are no sports with cheerleaders at half time. Half time is for the athletes to get a breather and supporters to get another drink. Lets get back to the sport and stop trying to add glitz and glamour to what is effectivly a modern gladiators arena.</p>
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		<title>
		By: gitarcarver		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33190</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gitarcarver]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33190</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bumper, 
&lt;i&gt;Other than outlawing certain moves I am not sure what else there is to regulate; shoes, socks and uniforms.&lt;/i&gt;

Gymnastics has standards for padding on the floor and apparatus.  Why not have something similar for cheerleading especially if we are throwing kids 20 and 30 feet into the air over hard flooring?  Even if we are dropping them from standing on the shoulders of teammates, why not have padding underneath their landing area?  

Like you, I am not sure what can be done, but I am sure that launching kids up into the air without padding or some type of protection when they come back to the ground would never be tolerated in other sports.  

Secondly, the point I was trying to make with the girl&#039;s knees is that it is a false comparrison to say &quot;more people get hurt in cheerleading than in football.&quot;  More girls get hurt in basketball than boys get hurt in basketball.  I have a feeling that people make the comparrison between football and cheerleading to feed into the idea that cheerleading is a sport (it isn&#039;t) and that cheerleaders are in more danger because of the activity, rather than acknowledging that in comparable sports, women get hurt more than men.  

It is simply a false comparrison.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bumper,<br />
<i>Other than outlawing certain moves I am not sure what else there is to regulate; shoes, socks and uniforms.</i></p>
<p>Gymnastics has standards for padding on the floor and apparatus.  Why not have something similar for cheerleading especially if we are throwing kids 20 and 30 feet into the air over hard flooring?  Even if we are dropping them from standing on the shoulders of teammates, why not have padding underneath their landing area?  </p>
<p>Like you, I am not sure what can be done, but I am sure that launching kids up into the air without padding or some type of protection when they come back to the ground would never be tolerated in other sports.  </p>
<p>Secondly, the point I was trying to make with the girl&#8217;s knees is that it is a false comparrison to say &#8220;more people get hurt in cheerleading than in football.&#8221;  More girls get hurt in basketball than boys get hurt in basketball.  I have a feeling that people make the comparrison between football and cheerleading to feed into the idea that cheerleading is a sport (it isn&#8217;t) and that cheerleaders are in more danger because of the activity, rather than acknowledging that in comparable sports, women get hurt more than men.  </p>
<p>It is simply a false comparrison.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brad Ford		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33180</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad Ford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33180</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Looking at the posts, there has been little commentary on the quality of &quot;cheerleading&quot; coaching provided by schools.  At my high school, our wrestling coach was a former Division 1 wrestler with twenty years experience.  Our baseball coach played college in the Big 12.  All our football coaches played college football &quot;somewhere&quot; and the head coach had 20+ years experience.  

Our &quot;cheerleading&quot; coach taught English and appeared to have been selected on the basis she was willing to do it because she needed the stipend.  As far as I could tell, she had no training whatsoever.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the posts, there has been little commentary on the quality of &#8220;cheerleading&#8221; coaching provided by schools.  At my high school, our wrestling coach was a former Division 1 wrestler with twenty years experience.  Our baseball coach played college in the Big 12.  All our football coaches played college football &#8220;somewhere&#8221; and the head coach had 20+ years experience.  </p>
<p>Our &#8220;cheerleading&#8221; coach taught English and appeared to have been selected on the basis she was willing to do it because she needed the stipend.  As far as I could tell, she had no training whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bumper		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33179</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bumper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33179</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[gitarcarver,

Some of what you note is probably because for the most part cheerleading is not considered a sport and as such was not under the athletic department of the school. Thus probably the formation of the two groups the got used that brought about the whole thread.

Although as it has been pointed out it has become more akin to gymnastics than a spirit squad. Other than outlawing certain moves I am not sure what else there is to regulate; shoes, socks and uniforms.(Sorry but those pom-poms are an inch to long?) Athletes have no standard of conditioning necessary to participate, other than a cursory medical clearance.

Orthopedics is not my specialty, but I have been told by those who it is that the prevalence of knee problems with girls is God&#039;s fault. It seems the female pelvic girdle is usually wider than a males and this causes different angles of gait, etc., which can lead to knee problems.  But as we recently found out they may have trouble suing the maker, at least in Kansas.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gitarcarver,</p>
<p>Some of what you note is probably because for the most part cheerleading is not considered a sport and as such was not under the athletic department of the school. Thus probably the formation of the two groups the got used that brought about the whole thread.</p>
<p>Although as it has been pointed out it has become more akin to gymnastics than a spirit squad. Other than outlawing certain moves I am not sure what else there is to regulate; shoes, socks and uniforms.(Sorry but those pom-poms are an inch to long?) Athletes have no standard of conditioning necessary to participate, other than a cursory medical clearance.</p>
<p>Orthopedics is not my specialty, but I have been told by those who it is that the prevalence of knee problems with girls is God&#8217;s fault. It seems the female pelvic girdle is usually wider than a males and this causes different angles of gait, etc., which can lead to knee problems.  But as we recently found out they may have trouble suing the maker, at least in Kansas.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: gitarcarver		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33176</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gitarcarver]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33176</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;It is hard for me to believe that cheerleading is uniquely dangerous and that other organized sports that also require one to defy gravity (gymnastics, ski jumping and diving come to mind) wouldn’t have similar types of injuries.&lt;/i&gt;

There are two major players in sport regulations at the High School and College Level.  The first is the NCAA, which first addressed cheerleading safety in 2005, and  basically has prohibited certain stunts from being performed.  This is in association with the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and Administrators.  When you read the AACCA &quot;rules,&quot; there is no requirement for safety equipment.  The &quot;rules&quot; are basically a restriction of certain moves and stunts.  

The National Federation of High School Associations has had a rule book for sports since 1935, but the first rule book for cheerleading was published in 1985.  It too only dealt with moves and stunts and not safety equipment.  Only recently has the NFHSA come out with rules for safety equipment when doing certain stunts.  

The point I am trying to make is that while other sports have aggressively addressed safety in the form of safety equipment, cheerleading seems to be lagging behind in that area.  In baseball, everything from the bat to the ball to helmets to gloves to hats to jewelry is regulated.  The same thing isn&#039;t there in cheerleading.  There is no requirement for the most basic of equipment such as a mat.  

Secondly, there is something else that should be looked at and that is the difference physically between men and women.  I have never figured this out, but as a sports official, I can tell you that when I umpire a softball game, it is not unusual to see 3 or 4 girls per team with metal knee braces on.  In umpiring baseball, it is rare to see a single player on either team wearing the same type of brace.  The same is true with basketball.  In the women&#039;s game, knee braces are common.  In the men&#039;s game, they are common, but very much less common than with women.    

I am not saying that any regulation would have saved the girl&#039;s life in this case.  What I am saying is that the regulation for safety equipment in other sports appears to be lacking in cheerleading.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It is hard for me to believe that cheerleading is uniquely dangerous and that other organized sports that also require one to defy gravity (gymnastics, ski jumping and diving come to mind) wouldn’t have similar types of injuries.</i></p>
<p>There are two major players in sport regulations at the High School and College Level.  The first is the NCAA, which first addressed cheerleading safety in 2005, and  basically has prohibited certain stunts from being performed.  This is in association with the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and Administrators.  When you read the AACCA &#8220;rules,&#8221; there is no requirement for safety equipment.  The &#8220;rules&#8221; are basically a restriction of certain moves and stunts.  </p>
<p>The National Federation of High School Associations has had a rule book for sports since 1935, but the first rule book for cheerleading was published in 1985.  It too only dealt with moves and stunts and not safety equipment.  Only recently has the NFHSA come out with rules for safety equipment when doing certain stunts.  </p>
<p>The point I am trying to make is that while other sports have aggressively addressed safety in the form of safety equipment, cheerleading seems to be lagging behind in that area.  In baseball, everything from the bat to the ball to helmets to gloves to hats to jewelry is regulated.  The same thing isn&#8217;t there in cheerleading.  There is no requirement for the most basic of equipment such as a mat.  </p>
<p>Secondly, there is something else that should be looked at and that is the difference physically between men and women.  I have never figured this out, but as a sports official, I can tell you that when I umpire a softball game, it is not unusual to see 3 or 4 girls per team with metal knee braces on.  In umpiring baseball, it is rare to see a single player on either team wearing the same type of brace.  The same is true with basketball.  In the women&#8217;s game, knee braces are common.  In the men&#8217;s game, they are common, but very much less common than with women.    </p>
<p>I am not saying that any regulation would have saved the girl&#8217;s life in this case.  What I am saying is that the regulation for safety equipment in other sports appears to be lacking in cheerleading.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Nieporent		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33167</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Nieporent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33167</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks Bumper for your realistic assessment of the risks of participating in cheerleading. If one were to believe the scare stories then the only activity that would be more dangerous than cheerleading would be becoming a suicide bomber.  It is hard for me to believe that cheerleading is uniquely dangerous and that other organized sports that also require one to defy gravity (gymnastics, ski jumping and diving come to mind) wouldn’t have similar types of injuries.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Bumper for your realistic assessment of the risks of participating in cheerleading. If one were to believe the scare stories then the only activity that would be more dangerous than cheerleading would be becoming a suicide bomber.  It is hard for me to believe that cheerleading is uniquely dangerous and that other organized sports that also require one to defy gravity (gymnastics, ski jumping and diving come to mind) wouldn’t have similar types of injuries.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bumper		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33155</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bumper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33155</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To the fall of 2005 when I retired. But I clearly remember in the mid 90s when my son was playing high school football shuddering when we were sitting mid-bleachers watching young ladies being launched to our eye level. I don&#039;t know of any changes in the last three years that would elevate cheerleading to a national crisis. 

I am reminded of the time not that long ago when our governor, who rode motorcycles, got the helmet law rescinded. A couple of years later there was a hew and cry when motorcycle related deaths went up by half again. No matter that we were in a resurgence of motorcycles (no doubt the result of the Discovery channel) and ridership was up over double from the previous years. So now they have to wear helmets again. 

So maybe there are more kids participating, maybe the size of the groups have gotten larger and there is less supervision, maybe the kids need better physical conditioning. Maybe there is a back story to the case that resulted in this lawsuit. But until someone can put together the broader picture all I can respond with is based on my own experience.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the fall of 2005 when I retired. But I clearly remember in the mid 90s when my son was playing high school football shuddering when we were sitting mid-bleachers watching young ladies being launched to our eye level. I don&#8217;t know of any changes in the last three years that would elevate cheerleading to a national crisis. </p>
<p>I am reminded of the time not that long ago when our governor, who rode motorcycles, got the helmet law rescinded. A couple of years later there was a hew and cry when motorcycle related deaths went up by half again. No matter that we were in a resurgence of motorcycles (no doubt the result of the Discovery channel) and ridership was up over double from the previous years. So now they have to wear helmets again. </p>
<p>So maybe there are more kids participating, maybe the size of the groups have gotten larger and there is less supervision, maybe the kids need better physical conditioning. Maybe there is a back story to the case that resulted in this lawsuit. But until someone can put together the broader picture all I can respond with is based on my own experience.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Poser		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33154</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Poser]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 05:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33154</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bumper,

How recent is your injury data? Is it recent enough to reflect the apparent fact that the difficulty of the stunts that cheerleaders perform has increased in recent years?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bumper,</p>
<p>How recent is your injury data? Is it recent enough to reflect the apparent fact that the difficulty of the stunts that cheerleaders perform has increased in recent years?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bumper		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33146</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bumper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33146</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ms. Archie clearly you have a cause and are on a mission. Good for you. If I have learned one thing at OL it is not to take anything personal or get personal. The information you provided has no links to verify it&#039;s validity, and may well be cherry picked for emphasis. We can agree that it is a dangerous activity, as are a lot of activities in which children participate. Where we disagree is how dangerous it is compared to other activities. What I am basing my comments on is data that I collected over a fourty year period for hundreds of thousands of K-12 age children who got injured in school and youth group activities, which included interscholastic sports and cheerleading. That data was used to project the costs of paying for treatment of future similar injuries and rates to insure same. During that time injuries from cheerleading activities were no more prevalent or expensive to treat than any other activity save senior high football. If you want to know how dangerous something is go ask the people who insure it.

Encapsulate your data with meaning, how many children over how many years to spend $4.38 billion on treatment? How many children are participating today in cheerleading versus ten years ago? Does not every school, camp and gym have trained adults to supervise the training of these cheerleaders? Are these adults so devoid of personal responsibility that they robotically only do what the national organization tells them to do? Did these organizations tell this child&#039;s mom not to take her to the hospital even though it appeared she was ailing?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms. Archie clearly you have a cause and are on a mission. Good for you. If I have learned one thing at OL it is not to take anything personal or get personal. The information you provided has no links to verify it&#8217;s validity, and may well be cherry picked for emphasis. We can agree that it is a dangerous activity, as are a lot of activities in which children participate. Where we disagree is how dangerous it is compared to other activities. What I am basing my comments on is data that I collected over a fourty year period for hundreds of thousands of K-12 age children who got injured in school and youth group activities, which included interscholastic sports and cheerleading. That data was used to project the costs of paying for treatment of future similar injuries and rates to insure same. During that time injuries from cheerleading activities were no more prevalent or expensive to treat than any other activity save senior high football. If you want to know how dangerous something is go ask the people who insure it.</p>
<p>Encapsulate your data with meaning, how many children over how many years to spend $4.38 billion on treatment? How many children are participating today in cheerleading versus ten years ago? Does not every school, camp and gym have trained adults to supervise the training of these cheerleaders? Are these adults so devoid of personal responsibility that they robotically only do what the national organization tells them to do? Did these organizations tell this child&#8217;s mom not to take her to the hospital even though it appeared she was ailing?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brad Ford		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2008/10/associations-sued-in-cheerleader-death/comment-page-1/#comment-33121</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad Ford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=7733#comment-33121</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Years ago, I ended up on our cheerleading team after &quot;winning&quot; a bet.  As a varsity wrestler (and former football player), I was shocked by the number of injuries sustained by the girls our our squad.  After 1 week of camp, 12 girls managed to sustain:
1. Serious knee injury requiring surgery;
2. One dislocated shoulder;
3. Numerous strains and sprains;
4. On near fatality when a girl fell off a pyramid head first.  (Luckily, I did my job and caught her.)

When I went to wrestling camp, we beat the crap out of each other for 9 days.  Nobody (including me) got seriously injured.  Indeed, I wrestled the a member of the US Olympic team without incident.  Why?  We had great coaches, great safety equipment, and we knew what we were doing.  

Bottom line, cheerleading is dangerous and largely pointless.  Without properly trained instructors and good safety equipment, it is a recipe for disaster.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Years ago, I ended up on our cheerleading team after &#8220;winning&#8221; a bet.  As a varsity wrestler (and former football player), I was shocked by the number of injuries sustained by the girls our our squad.  After 1 week of camp, 12 girls managed to sustain:<br />
1. Serious knee injury requiring surgery;<br />
2. One dislocated shoulder;<br />
3. Numerous strains and sprains;<br />
4. On near fatality when a girl fell off a pyramid head first.  (Luckily, I did my job and caught her.)</p>
<p>When I went to wrestling camp, we beat the crap out of each other for 9 days.  Nobody (including me) got seriously injured.  Indeed, I wrestled the a member of the US Olympic team without incident.  Why?  We had great coaches, great safety equipment, and we knew what we were doing.  </p>
<p>Bottom line, cheerleading is dangerous and largely pointless.  Without properly trained instructors and good safety equipment, it is a recipe for disaster.</p>
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