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	Comments on: NYC&#8217;s unfireable &#8220;rubber room&#8221; teachers	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:41:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Ted Frank		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-83761</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-83761</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What EnragedEducator is describing is an argument for breaking up the public-school monopoly, rather than for sticking taxpayers with an expensive bill for teachers who spend their days running their own businesses.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What EnragedEducator is describing is an argument for breaking up the public-school monopoly, rather than for sticking taxpayers with an expensive bill for teachers who spend their days running their own businesses.</p>
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		<title>
		By: &#8220;It was a lost year for [the kids]&#8220;		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-83748</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[&#8220;It was a lost year for [the kids]&#8220;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-83748</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Angeles has trouble getting rid of problem teachers too [L.A. Weekly, Brian Doherty/KCET] Our post a couple of weeks ago about New York City&#8217;s &#8220;rubber room&#8221; stirred considerable [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Angeles has trouble getting rid of problem teachers too [L.A. Weekly, Brian Doherty/KCET] Our post a couple of weeks ago about New York City&#8217;s &#8220;rubber room&#8221; stirred considerable [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: EnragedEducator		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-83617</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[EnragedEducator]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-83617</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I must disagree with Ted Frank about whether the Rubber Room inmates have a right to use their time in whatever way they deem fit. I have a dear friend who has been persecuted for the past 20 years by his Garden State school district employers. He&#039;s an award-winning educator, who always put kids and their parents first. Recently, the district escalated the struggle and suspended him without pay. He cannot even receive unemployment or look for other work for legitimate reasons I cannot enumerate. After witnessing my friend&#039;s financial and psychological devastation, I say Bravo to those imprisoned educators who are trying to salvage an intolerable situation. I taught College English and Humanities for more than two decades, and I&#039;m among the first to rail against ineffective teachers, who were paid plenty, while I always had to settle for scratching out a pathetic $20,000 a year gross income at various colleges/universities, teaching adjunct courses year round. I told my nearly illiterate students, most of whom lacked the most rudimentary core knowledge, to go back to their public schools and raise holy Hell. At the same time, I know from bitter experience, professional jealousy and fear often make the best teachers targets of administrators&#039; and colleagues&#039; wrath. Having a higher degree or writing one&#039;s own courses seldom engenders admiration, but rather suspicion and dirty tricks. The public must wake up to these issues and work with the unions to reform the tenure system, as well as the woefully inadequate American curriculum, which relies all too heavily upon standardized tests. All the best to the innocent teachers trapped in the Rubber Rooms.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must disagree with Ted Frank about whether the Rubber Room inmates have a right to use their time in whatever way they deem fit. I have a dear friend who has been persecuted for the past 20 years by his Garden State school district employers. He&#8217;s an award-winning educator, who always put kids and their parents first. Recently, the district escalated the struggle and suspended him without pay. He cannot even receive unemployment or look for other work for legitimate reasons I cannot enumerate. After witnessing my friend&#8217;s financial and psychological devastation, I say Bravo to those imprisoned educators who are trying to salvage an intolerable situation. I taught College English and Humanities for more than two decades, and I&#8217;m among the first to rail against ineffective teachers, who were paid plenty, while I always had to settle for scratching out a pathetic $20,000 a year gross income at various colleges/universities, teaching adjunct courses year round. I told my nearly illiterate students, most of whom lacked the most rudimentary core knowledge, to go back to their public schools and raise holy Hell. At the same time, I know from bitter experience, professional jealousy and fear often make the best teachers targets of administrators&#8217; and colleagues&#8217; wrath. Having a higher degree or writing one&#8217;s own courses seldom engenders admiration, but rather suspicion and dirty tricks. The public must wake up to these issues and work with the unions to reform the tenure system, as well as the woefully inadequate American curriculum, which relies all too heavily upon standardized tests. All the best to the innocent teachers trapped in the Rubber Rooms.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted Frank		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-83562</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 09:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-83562</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t think it possible for me to have less sympathy for the beneficiaries of union and taxpayer largess who get paid to sit in the rubber room, but the ludicrous sense of entitlement in the last two comments managed to do it.  Talk about an echo chamber.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t think it possible for me to have less sympathy for the beneficiaries of union and taxpayer largess who get paid to sit in the rubber room, but the ludicrous sense of entitlement in the last two comments managed to do it.  Talk about an echo chamber.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ed Hugh Cator and Percy Q Tedde		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-83530</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ed Hugh Cator and Percy Q Tedde]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 04:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-83530</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Uh---I&#039;ll do whatever the hell I want in the rubber room.  What--are we supposed to sit there with our hands folded and not move for seven hours like detention in Catholic School?????  I didn&#039;t ask to be put there--and did nothing to deserve it.  And, yeah, if I want to write a best seller and self-publish and market it myself and make a million while I&#039;m in there--I will so I can get the hell away from that sh**ty, corrupt system run by what seems to ironically be former Nazi war criminals.    The people of the city should thank me for having ambition--as soon as I can afford it--I&#039;m out of there--I&#039;m not holding my breath for justice.  Next time, people of NYC, don&#039;t vote for such a schmuck for Mayor.   Get your head out of your keesters!!!!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh&#8212;I&#8217;ll do whatever the hell I want in the rubber room.  What&#8211;are we supposed to sit there with our hands folded and not move for seven hours like detention in Catholic School?????  I didn&#8217;t ask to be put there&#8211;and did nothing to deserve it.  And, yeah, if I want to write a best seller and self-publish and market it myself and make a million while I&#8217;m in there&#8211;I will so I can get the hell away from that sh**ty, corrupt system run by what seems to ironically be former Nazi war criminals.    The people of the city should thank me for having ambition&#8211;as soon as I can afford it&#8211;I&#8217;m out of there&#8211;I&#8217;m not holding my breath for justice.  Next time, people of NYC, don&#8217;t vote for such a schmuck for Mayor.   Get your head out of your keesters!!!!</p>
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		<title>
		By: DAVID PAKTER		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-83008</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DAVID PAKTER]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-83008</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I find the comments on this website to be written on an extremely high and erudite level so congratulations to one and all.

If I may respond to Mr. Ted Frank&#039;s comment above:
Quote:
&quot;Even if Rosenfeld is entirely innocent and unjustly placed in the rubber room, it’s certainly problematic if he is using his time there to run outside businesses.&quot;

I spent an entire year sharing a table with Mr. Rosenfeld in the Brooklyn, Chapel Street Rubber Room.  While many of the Teachers just read the newspaper of try to make the long day go by faster by playing cards or dominos or engaging in discussions, each Teacher has to get through the day as best he or she can. 

Teachers in a school are free to make calls between class assignments and on their breaks or at lunch time.  Having sat with Mr. Rosenfeld on a daily basis for an entire year I can vouch for the fact that he used his cell phone no more than any teacher still at a school would do.

What logic or sense would it make to prohibit this man from using his cell phone any way he chose.  He did ask to be incarcerated for an insane decade or be given the &quot;Life Sentence&quot; meted out to him by a vengeful Chancellor who was/is in need of a Scapegoat to deflect the Public&#039;s attention away from the massive failures of that same Chancellor.  

History is quite replete with Dictators selecting from the population, Scapegoats to manipulate the Public&#039;s anger.

I might  add that during the year I sat next to this falsely alleged &quot;dangerous&quot; individual, I began writing down my experiences as a Whistle-blower under the present Regime,  If this book/memoir/expose of rampant corruption and waste of Tax payer dollars is eventually published (which is a good possibility) will the NY POST vilify and crucify me also with the 42 Point Type Headline: 

&quot;Former Teacher of the Year used his time in the Rubber Room to write Best Seller / Expose/ Personal Memoir&quot;.  

Will I be referred to as a degenerate human being because my time spent in the Rubber Room later translated into huge Royalties ?

Will I be required to surrender the Movie Rights and attendant profits to NYC or perhaps the Chancellor will claim a percentage since it was he who forced me to spend years in 4 (four) different Rubber Room gulags all over NYC.

It is perfectly possible that the way I used my years in the Rubber Room will garner far more wealth than Mr Rosenfeld&#039;s so-called Real Estate &quot;Empire&quot;.  Imagine- now the POST would have its readers believe a few millions acquired over 30 years constitutes an Empire.

I live just down the block from Mayor Bloomberg&#039;s forty million dollar Limestone Mansion at 17 East 79th Street near Fifth Ave.  To my knowledge if that were the Mayor&#039;s sole real estate holding, I very much doubt anyone would accuse the Mayor of possessing or controlling a &quot;Real Estate Empire&quot;.  And that Mansion is worth six times what my friend Alan Rosenfeld possesses, all of  which houses in Queens may all carry huge Mortgages still to pay off.

I very much appreciate being allowed to comment here and would certainly be interested in any and all reactions to what I have just stated above.  

Thanks in advance to those who wish to respond.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the comments on this website to be written on an extremely high and erudite level so congratulations to one and all.</p>
<p>If I may respond to Mr. Ted Frank&#8217;s comment above:<br />
Quote:<br />
&#8220;Even if Rosenfeld is entirely innocent and unjustly placed in the rubber room, it’s certainly problematic if he is using his time there to run outside businesses.&#8221;</p>
<p>I spent an entire year sharing a table with Mr. Rosenfeld in the Brooklyn, Chapel Street Rubber Room.  While many of the Teachers just read the newspaper of try to make the long day go by faster by playing cards or dominos or engaging in discussions, each Teacher has to get through the day as best he or she can. </p>
<p>Teachers in a school are free to make calls between class assignments and on their breaks or at lunch time.  Having sat with Mr. Rosenfeld on a daily basis for an entire year I can vouch for the fact that he used his cell phone no more than any teacher still at a school would do.</p>
<p>What logic or sense would it make to prohibit this man from using his cell phone any way he chose.  He did ask to be incarcerated for an insane decade or be given the &#8220;Life Sentence&#8221; meted out to him by a vengeful Chancellor who was/is in need of a Scapegoat to deflect the Public&#8217;s attention away from the massive failures of that same Chancellor.  </p>
<p>History is quite replete with Dictators selecting from the population, Scapegoats to manipulate the Public&#8217;s anger.</p>
<p>I might  add that during the year I sat next to this falsely alleged &#8220;dangerous&#8221; individual, I began writing down my experiences as a Whistle-blower under the present Regime,  If this book/memoir/expose of rampant corruption and waste of Tax payer dollars is eventually published (which is a good possibility) will the NY POST vilify and crucify me also with the 42 Point Type Headline: </p>
<p>&#8220;Former Teacher of the Year used his time in the Rubber Room to write Best Seller / Expose/ Personal Memoir&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Will I be referred to as a degenerate human being because my time spent in the Rubber Room later translated into huge Royalties ?</p>
<p>Will I be required to surrender the Movie Rights and attendant profits to NYC or perhaps the Chancellor will claim a percentage since it was he who forced me to spend years in 4 (four) different Rubber Room gulags all over NYC.</p>
<p>It is perfectly possible that the way I used my years in the Rubber Room will garner far more wealth than Mr Rosenfeld&#8217;s so-called Real Estate &#8220;Empire&#8221;.  Imagine- now the POST would have its readers believe a few millions acquired over 30 years constitutes an Empire.</p>
<p>I live just down the block from Mayor Bloomberg&#8217;s forty million dollar Limestone Mansion at 17 East 79th Street near Fifth Ave.  To my knowledge if that were the Mayor&#8217;s sole real estate holding, I very much doubt anyone would accuse the Mayor of possessing or controlling a &#8220;Real Estate Empire&#8221;.  And that Mansion is worth six times what my friend Alan Rosenfeld possesses, all of  which houses in Queens may all carry huge Mortgages still to pay off.</p>
<p>I very much appreciate being allowed to comment here and would certainly be interested in any and all reactions to what I have just stated above.  </p>
<p>Thanks in advance to those who wish to respond.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-82956</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-82956</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Department of Education has a right to administratively reassign teachers -- for a limited period of time and to an assignment commensurate with the dignity of the profession. That they regularly ignore this is a fact. However, realistically speaking, no judge in his or her right mind is going to be the one to order a teacher that could be a threat to children back into a classroom. As for the persecution of senior teachers -- a neutral hearing officer&#039;s decision that a teacher was guilty negates claims of discrimination -- that, too, is the law.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Department of Education has a right to administratively reassign teachers &#8212; for a limited period of time and to an assignment commensurate with the dignity of the profession. That they regularly ignore this is a fact. However, realistically speaking, no judge in his or her right mind is going to be the one to order a teacher that could be a threat to children back into a classroom. As for the persecution of senior teachers &#8212; a neutral hearing officer&#8217;s decision that a teacher was guilty negates claims of discrimination &#8212; that, too, is the law.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William Nuesslein		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-82946</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William Nuesslein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-82946</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If I understand the prior comment by Ted Frank correctly, the purported injustice to Mr. Rosenfield is driven by the inability of &quot;the system&quot; to separate out frivolous charges - the zero tolerance effect combined with the &quot;females are absolutely credible&quot; silliness - together with the observed gross incompetence of American jurors. 

Certainly a Union has a duty to defend its members from injustices.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I understand the prior comment by Ted Frank correctly, the purported injustice to Mr. Rosenfield is driven by the inability of &#8220;the system&#8221; to separate out frivolous charges &#8211; the zero tolerance effect combined with the &#8220;females are absolutely credible&#8221; silliness &#8211; together with the observed gross incompetence of American jurors. </p>
<p>Certainly a Union has a duty to defend its members from injustices.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted Frank		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-82933</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-82933</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It may be more of a liability issue in the case of Rosenfeld: now that the city has &quot;warning,&quot; it can&#039;t ever risk letting him teach students ever again (even if the city thinks he&#039;s entirely innocent), because any accusation that a jury believes in a civil suit would surely result in substantial punitive damages.  

In any event, it&#039;s Rosenfeld&#039;s fellow unionized teachers who perhaps have the most to complain about: if the union is insisting that the city spend $10M a year on teachers who the city wishes to fire, that&#039;s $10M in salary that the union could have extracted that isn&#039;t going to working teachers, because the union&#039;s negotiators thought it more important to provide protections against being fired than to ensure that teachers maximize their wages.

Even if Rosenfeld is entirely innocent and unjustly placed in the rubber room, it&#039;s certainly problematic if he is using his time there to run outside businesses.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may be more of a liability issue in the case of Rosenfeld: now that the city has &#8220;warning,&#8221; it can&#8217;t ever risk letting him teach students ever again (even if the city thinks he&#8217;s entirely innocent), because any accusation that a jury believes in a civil suit would surely result in substantial punitive damages.  </p>
<p>In any event, it&#8217;s Rosenfeld&#8217;s fellow unionized teachers who perhaps have the most to complain about: if the union is insisting that the city spend $10M a year on teachers who the city wishes to fire, that&#8217;s $10M in salary that the union could have extracted that isn&#8217;t going to working teachers, because the union&#8217;s negotiators thought it more important to provide protections against being fired than to ensure that teachers maximize their wages.</p>
<p>Even if Rosenfeld is entirely innocent and unjustly placed in the rubber room, it&#8217;s certainly problematic if he is using his time there to run outside businesses.</p>
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		<title>
		By: SmokeVanThorn		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/02/nycs-unfireable-rubber-room-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-82927</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SmokeVanThorn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 04:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=15867#comment-82927</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It may be that Mr. Pakter and Mr. Rosenfeld have been unjustly treated. Neither Mr. Pakter nor VMS suggests that none of the teachers confined to the &quot;rubber rooms&quot; is incompetent or unfit, so the larger point made by this  post and the NYPost  seems to stand - this is an absurd way to deal with teachers who deserve to be fired.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may be that Mr. Pakter and Mr. Rosenfeld have been unjustly treated. Neither Mr. Pakter nor VMS suggests that none of the teachers confined to the &#8220;rubber rooms&#8221; is incompetent or unfit, so the larger point made by this  post and the NYPost  seems to stand &#8211; this is an absurd way to deal with teachers who deserve to be fired.</p>
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