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	Comments on: The politics of Toyota-bashing	</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:02:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: David Schwartz		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87583</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Schwartz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87583</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;The strongest evidence that the floor mats are defective comes from Toyota, as &#039;defect&#039; is the word they chose to use in their own recall letter:

&#039;Toyota has decided that a defect which relates to motor vehicle safety exists in certain 200_ through certain 200_ model year [name of model] vehicles. The defect is the potential for an unsecured or
incompatible driver’s floor mat to interfere with the accelerator pedal and cause it to get stuck in the wide open position.&#039;&quot;

This says a defect exists in the *vehicle* in that an unsecured or incompatible floor mat can interfere with the accelerator pedal. If you think about it, how can a problem that can involve an incompatible floor mat possibly be a defect in the factory-supplied floor mat?

The defect is in the arrangement of parts, not any one part.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The strongest evidence that the floor mats are defective comes from Toyota, as &#8216;defect&#8217; is the word they chose to use in their own recall letter:</p>
<p>&#8216;Toyota has decided that a defect which relates to motor vehicle safety exists in certain 200_ through certain 200_ model year [name of model] vehicles. The defect is the potential for an unsecured or<br />
incompatible driver’s floor mat to interfere with the accelerator pedal and cause it to get stuck in the wide open position.'&#8221;</p>
<p>This says a defect exists in the *vehicle* in that an unsecured or incompatible floor mat can interfere with the accelerator pedal. If you think about it, how can a problem that can involve an incompatible floor mat possibly be a defect in the factory-supplied floor mat?</p>
<p>The defect is in the arrangement of parts, not any one part.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Justinian Lane		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87573</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justinian Lane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 03:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87573</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bill Alexander: I have to disagree with you about the strength of a spring mechanism.  I witnessed an auto engineer place a floormat on top of its pedal, and every time he did so, the pedal popped back.  I don&#039;t know the sales figures of the vehicle in question, but I know they&#039;re high enough that the pedal spring isn&#039;t turning consumers off.  Try pushing your pedal to the floor and putting your floor mat on it and see what happens in your car.

CarLitGuy: You&#039;re changing the subject a bit.  I agree that the other problems you mention do exist.  But that doesn&#039;t mean that Toyota&#039;s floor mats aren&#039;t defective for reasons I detail at a post at TortDeform.com.   Of course Toyota isn&#039;t to blame if a driver buys a generic floor mat and installs it in his vehicle upside-down on top of his Toyota floor mats and that causes a problem.  But a Toyota floor mat in a Toyota shouldn&#039;t jam the gas pedal.

 I&#039;m also going to agree with you that no car can be made idiot proof, and if one ever was, we&#039;d just build a better idiot.  We&#039;ll just have to agree to disagree about whether the test under the 3rd Restatement is too friendly to manufacturers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill Alexander: I have to disagree with you about the strength of a spring mechanism.  I witnessed an auto engineer place a floormat on top of its pedal, and every time he did so, the pedal popped back.  I don&#8217;t know the sales figures of the vehicle in question, but I know they&#8217;re high enough that the pedal spring isn&#8217;t turning consumers off.  Try pushing your pedal to the floor and putting your floor mat on it and see what happens in your car.</p>
<p>CarLitGuy: You&#8217;re changing the subject a bit.  I agree that the other problems you mention do exist.  But that doesn&#8217;t mean that Toyota&#8217;s floor mats aren&#8217;t defective for reasons I detail at a post at TortDeform.com.   Of course Toyota isn&#8217;t to blame if a driver buys a generic floor mat and installs it in his vehicle upside-down on top of his Toyota floor mats and that causes a problem.  But a Toyota floor mat in a Toyota shouldn&#8217;t jam the gas pedal.</p>
<p> I&#8217;m also going to agree with you that no car can be made idiot proof, and if one ever was, we&#8217;d just build a better idiot.  We&#8217;ll just have to agree to disagree about whether the test under the 3rd Restatement is too friendly to manufacturers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Poser		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87569</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Poser]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87569</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It seems to me that the discussion here of whether the floor mats are defective misses the point. If the floor mats are designed in such a way as to come loose and jam the gas pedal,  although the floor mats may perform their intended function perfectly and therefore not be defective in and of themselves, the vehicle as a whole is defective. Whether or not a product is defective is not determined merely by the defectiveness of its components but by how they interact.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that the discussion here of whether the floor mats are defective misses the point. If the floor mats are designed in such a way as to come loose and jam the gas pedal,  although the floor mats may perform their intended function perfectly and therefore not be defective in and of themselves, the vehicle as a whole is defective. Whether or not a product is defective is not determined merely by the defectiveness of its components but by how they interact.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Alexander		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87561</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87561</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps Fred Flinstone had the right idea about floor mats.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps Fred Flinstone had the right idea about floor mats.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CarLitGuy		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87556</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CarLitGuy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87556</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Justinian,
 no amount of keying, short permanent attachment to the floorboards, prevents a user from NOT correctly installing it after cleaning or the like.  And, while many manufacturers do make floor mats specific to certain models, any number of &quot;universal&quot; floor mats still exist.  Nor can manufacturers prevent someone from installing one floor mat over another.

Manufacturers see all of the above, plus their own floor mats removed and installed upside down - for reasons suggested in my earlier post.  I stand by my earlier comment - a car can&#039;t be made idiot-proof.

Other than perhaps Ralph Nader, I&#039;m not sure who thinks the 3rd Restatement of Torts is too manufacturer friendly, premised in part as it is on retrospective forseability.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justinian,<br />
 no amount of keying, short permanent attachment to the floorboards, prevents a user from NOT correctly installing it after cleaning or the like.  And, while many manufacturers do make floor mats specific to certain models, any number of &#8220;universal&#8221; floor mats still exist.  Nor can manufacturers prevent someone from installing one floor mat over another.</p>
<p>Manufacturers see all of the above, plus their own floor mats removed and installed upside down &#8211; for reasons suggested in my earlier post.  I stand by my earlier comment &#8211; a car can&#8217;t be made idiot-proof.</p>
<p>Other than perhaps Ralph Nader, I&#8217;m not sure who thinks the 3rd Restatement of Torts is too manufacturer friendly, premised in part as it is on retrospective forseability.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Alexander		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87516</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87516</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Other competing vehicles also have spring pressure on the gas pedal that is so strong that no floor mat will jam the pedal to the floor. &quot;
Any spring that strong would make a car undriveable for more than a few miles. If a floor mat is wrinkled lengthwise, it can block any gas peddle.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Other competing vehicles also have spring pressure on the gas pedal that is so strong that no floor mat will jam the pedal to the floor. &#8221;<br />
Any spring that strong would make a car undriveable for more than a few miles. If a floor mat is wrinkled lengthwise, it can block any gas peddle.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Justinian Lane		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87514</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justinian Lane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87514</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[CarLitguy: Floor mats from competing manufacturers can become detached and will not jam the gas pedal.  Other competing vehicles also have spring pressure on the gas pedal that is so strong that no floor mat will jam the pedal to the floor.  

Floor mats from competing manufacturers are keyed to specific vehicles.  For example, you can&#039;t take a floor mat from an SUV and use it in a compact car because the retention holes are keyed differently.  This insures than neither users nor dealers mistakenly install the wrong mat.  (If the dealer does it, is it the user&#039;s fault for not catching the dealer&#039;s error?)  Floor mats from competing vehicles are also labeled to prevent the same problem.

Finally, if you choose to believe that the floor mats are not defective because they did in fact protect the carpet, that&#039;s fine.  However, the floor mats meet the legal definition of a defective product.  Under the Restatement 3d of Torts, (which is sometimes criticized as being too friendly to manufacturers) a product is defective if:

&quot;the foreseeable risks of harm posed by the product could have been reduced or avoided by the adoption of a reasonable alternative design by the seller or other distributor, or a predecessor in the commercial chain of distribution, and the omission of the alternative design renders the product not reasonably safe.&quot;

There is no question that the floor mat becoming detached is foreseeable.  There is no question that reasonable alternative designs for floor mats that won&#039;t jam the gas pedal exist and could have been used by Toyota.  There is room for argument whether that renders the product not reasonably safe, but I think it does.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CarLitguy: Floor mats from competing manufacturers can become detached and will not jam the gas pedal.  Other competing vehicles also have spring pressure on the gas pedal that is so strong that no floor mat will jam the pedal to the floor.  </p>
<p>Floor mats from competing manufacturers are keyed to specific vehicles.  For example, you can&#8217;t take a floor mat from an SUV and use it in a compact car because the retention holes are keyed differently.  This insures than neither users nor dealers mistakenly install the wrong mat.  (If the dealer does it, is it the user&#8217;s fault for not catching the dealer&#8217;s error?)  Floor mats from competing vehicles are also labeled to prevent the same problem.</p>
<p>Finally, if you choose to believe that the floor mats are not defective because they did in fact protect the carpet, that&#8217;s fine.  However, the floor mats meet the legal definition of a defective product.  Under the Restatement 3d of Torts, (which is sometimes criticized as being too friendly to manufacturers) a product is defective if:</p>
<p>&#8220;the foreseeable risks of harm posed by the product could have been reduced or avoided by the adoption of a reasonable alternative design by the seller or other distributor, or a predecessor in the commercial chain of distribution, and the omission of the alternative design renders the product not reasonably safe.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is no question that the floor mat becoming detached is foreseeable.  There is no question that reasonable alternative designs for floor mats that won&#8217;t jam the gas pedal exist and could have been used by Toyota.  There is room for argument whether that renders the product not reasonably safe, but I think it does.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CarLitGuy		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87377</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CarLitGuy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 01:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87377</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Todd,
    as one in the industry, I believe you have mis-attributed to GM the acts of others.  Certainly, GM (and Ford, far more so) is gaining some traction from recent events (ignoring, for a moment, that some GM products are substantially identical to the Toyota products in the news, and built at the same factory, by the same (now) laid off workers), but GM can hardly be claimed to have control of the pulpit.

  Certainly, new fuel economy regulations are no friend to any full line vehicle manufacturer - though they might be better than a patchwork of California regulations across the nation.  Nor are the numerous state by state &quot;Lemon Law&quot; changes that have swept the nation since Chrysler&#039;s bankruptcy, and GM&#039;s following.  Finally, plenty of people have sought to attach liability to the new GM for the actions of the old, in spite of the rulings of the bankruptcy court.

  If there is a bully pulpit out there (one I think you will find any number of politicians on), I submit that GM is at best an unintended beneficiary.  There are others among the voting public to whose benefit that pulpit is focused.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd,<br />
    as one in the industry, I believe you have mis-attributed to GM the acts of others.  Certainly, GM (and Ford, far more so) is gaining some traction from recent events (ignoring, for a moment, that some GM products are substantially identical to the Toyota products in the news, and built at the same factory, by the same (now) laid off workers), but GM can hardly be claimed to have control of the pulpit.</p>
<p>  Certainly, new fuel economy regulations are no friend to any full line vehicle manufacturer &#8211; though they might be better than a patchwork of California regulations across the nation.  Nor are the numerous state by state &#8220;Lemon Law&#8221; changes that have swept the nation since Chrysler&#8217;s bankruptcy, and GM&#8217;s following.  Finally, plenty of people have sought to attach liability to the new GM for the actions of the old, in spite of the rulings of the bankruptcy court.</p>
<p>  If there is a bully pulpit out there (one I think you will find any number of politicians on), I submit that GM is at best an unintended beneficiary.  There are others among the voting public to whose benefit that pulpit is focused.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CarLitGuy		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87375</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CarLitGuy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 01:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87375</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Justinian - one, the language of all such letters, regardless of manufacturer, reads the same.  Do not attribute the language to Toyota alone, as the words were chosen for them.  Second, I suggest you read further, as your post assumes facts not in evidence (bold mine):

...the potential for an &lt;b&gt;unsecured&lt;/b&gt; or &lt;b&gt;incompatible&lt;/b&gt; driver’s floor mat... 

That&#039;s &quot;user error&quot; and &quot;user error&quot;.  User error in the first case by thru failure to resecure the mat after removing it for cleaning, picking up loose change, etc, and user error in the second case for either doing as I did, or placing a second floor mat (such as the ubiquitous &quot;all weather&quot; floor mats) on top of the first, to protect the factory floormats from dirt, mud, etc. In other cases, people remove their floor mats and flip them over (carpet down, rubber up), again to keep the mats from getting dirty.  In short, the &quot;defect&quot; is that the vehicle isn&#039;t, apparently, sufficiently idiot proof.  The defense of too stupid to take responsibility for one&#039;s actions is not one I find palatable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justinian &#8211; one, the language of all such letters, regardless of manufacturer, reads the same.  Do not attribute the language to Toyota alone, as the words were chosen for them.  Second, I suggest you read further, as your post assumes facts not in evidence (bold mine):</p>
<p>&#8230;the potential for an <b>unsecured</b> or <b>incompatible</b> driver’s floor mat&#8230; </p>
<p>That&#8217;s &#8220;user error&#8221; and &#8220;user error&#8221;.  User error in the first case by thru failure to resecure the mat after removing it for cleaning, picking up loose change, etc, and user error in the second case for either doing as I did, or placing a second floor mat (such as the ubiquitous &#8220;all weather&#8221; floor mats) on top of the first, to protect the factory floormats from dirt, mud, etc. In other cases, people remove their floor mats and flip them over (carpet down, rubber up), again to keep the mats from getting dirty.  In short, the &#8220;defect&#8221; is that the vehicle isn&#8217;t, apparently, sufficiently idiot proof.  The defense of too stupid to take responsibility for one&#8217;s actions is not one I find palatable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Todd Rogers		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/04/the-politics-of-toyota-bashing/comment-page-1/#comment-87373</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd Rogers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=16839#comment-87373</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I wish my marketing department had the U.S. Gov&#039;t at its disposal.  I&#039;d use the bully-pulpit the same way as G.M.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish my marketing department had the U.S. Gov&#8217;t at its disposal.  I&#8217;d use the bully-pulpit the same way as G.M.</p>
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