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	<title>
	Comments on: Christian Legal Society v. Martinez	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 04 Jul 2010 04:00:07 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Skeptical		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93739</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Skeptical]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jul 2010 04:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93739</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bosh. This isn&#039;t an anti-religion decision, a moderate conservative decision, or a liberal decision. Neither is it an overly-lawyered decision. The case was an overly-lawyered attempt to erode the right of free association by demanding the state subsidize the assembly of a group that wants the state to pay for its assembling but excluding members eligible for  access to those funds and facilities.  That  the suing  is being done by  fundamentalist Christians  doesn&#039;t make this an anti- religious decision. 

Christians, grangers, trade unionists, and Klansmen want the right to assemble, not the state to control their membership.  Educational institutions have an interest in there being the opportunity for students to socialize, argue, explore ideas, activities, that are widely and fluidly defined (meaning a chess club may be inactive while a web design club can be founded) within the purview of the most basic right that members of the academic community aren&#039;t denying others from participating freely (or choosing not to). 

And that certainly does mean that some argumentative jackass can make it so no one wants to be a member a member of a duly formed student group, or that the game of who get to count the votes for president becomes juvenile, and  another group forms, or no one wants to participate, or meetings are shouting matches. 

That&#039;s how public institutions work, and the right to assemble and associate means it&#039;s a right,  not that taxpayers have to subsidize it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bosh. This isn&#8217;t an anti-religion decision, a moderate conservative decision, or a liberal decision. Neither is it an overly-lawyered decision. The case was an overly-lawyered attempt to erode the right of free association by demanding the state subsidize the assembly of a group that wants the state to pay for its assembling but excluding members eligible for  access to those funds and facilities.  That  the suing  is being done by  fundamentalist Christians  doesn&#8217;t make this an anti- religious decision. </p>
<p>Christians, grangers, trade unionists, and Klansmen want the right to assemble, not the state to control their membership.  Educational institutions have an interest in there being the opportunity for students to socialize, argue, explore ideas, activities, that are widely and fluidly defined (meaning a chess club may be inactive while a web design club can be founded) within the purview of the most basic right that members of the academic community aren&#8217;t denying others from participating freely (or choosing not to). </p>
<p>And that certainly does mean that some argumentative jackass can make it so no one wants to be a member a member of a duly formed student group, or that the game of who get to count the votes for president becomes juvenile, and  another group forms, or no one wants to participate, or meetings are shouting matches. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s how public institutions work, and the right to assemble and associate means it&#8217;s a right,  not that taxpayers have to subsidize it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ace of Sevens		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93675</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ace of Sevens]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jul 2010 06:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93675</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The things you are describing already happen to some degree. It happened to the atheist group at my school. Due to their numbers and organizations, evangelical Christians doing this sort of thing to atheist and gay groups is the main context I&#039;ve seen it happen in. Hell, we had an obnoxious Linux advocate in the Mac users group. The groups tend to count on the fact of their subject matter to keep out the haters. If I didn&#039;t like black people, I wouldn&#039;t want to go to meeting of the black student union every week, for instance.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The things you are describing already happen to some degree. It happened to the atheist group at my school. Due to their numbers and organizations, evangelical Christians doing this sort of thing to atheist and gay groups is the main context I&#8217;ve seen it happen in. Hell, we had an obnoxious Linux advocate in the Mac users group. The groups tend to count on the fact of their subject matter to keep out the haters. If I didn&#8217;t like black people, I wouldn&#8217;t want to go to meeting of the black student union every week, for instance.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Shucky		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93547</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shucky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93547</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[if the advocacy groups on the left think this won&#039;t hurt them, they have another thing coming.  anti-greens will sue their way into green groups, religious will sue their way into atheist groups, anti-muslims will sue their way into muslim groups, anti-feminists will sue their way into feminist groups, prolifers will sue their way into abortionist groups, whites will sue their way into other race-exclusive groups, anti-socialists will sue their way into socialist groups, republicans will sue their way into democrat groups, etc.  anyone who doesnt respect freedom of association doesnt deserve it themselves.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if the advocacy groups on the left think this won&#8217;t hurt them, they have another thing coming.  anti-greens will sue their way into green groups, religious will sue their way into atheist groups, anti-muslims will sue their way into muslim groups, anti-feminists will sue their way into feminist groups, prolifers will sue their way into abortionist groups, whites will sue their way into other race-exclusive groups, anti-socialists will sue their way into socialist groups, republicans will sue their way into democrat groups, etc.  anyone who doesnt respect freedom of association doesnt deserve it themselves.</p>
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		<title>
		By: June 30 roundup		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93482</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[June 30 roundup]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2010 05:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93482</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] thinks the Court made the right call in the student-group-recognition Christian Legal Society case, while Richard Epstein thinks it [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] thinks the Court made the right call in the student-group-recognition Christian Legal Society case, while Richard Epstein thinks it [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous Attorney		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93452</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous Attorney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93452</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dave H:

Your point&#039;s well-taken.

But I think the amount of subsidy here is probably negligible (cost of elecriticity to light the meeting room, etc.).  I once worked for a group called the Atlantic Legal Foundation that challenged student-fee subsidies for the on-campus &quot;PIRG&quot; (public interest research group, a liberal outfit).  Conservative students understandably didn&#039;t want their money going to support such a group.  The (3rd Circuit?) decided to ban forced funding for off-campus lobbying activity, which went too far, but kept it for on-campus stuff since that advanced the &quot;educational mission&quot; of the college.

Anyway, I see all these points, but so long as the subsidy is minimal, I guess I&#039;d err on the side of having as much activity is possible.  Meaning, yes, I&#039;d have to pay a small amount to support a group I didn&#039;t like.

For instance:  American Renaissance, a &quot;race realist&quot; or &quot;white advocacy&quot; magazine, holds bi-annual conferences.  The most recent one was shut down because of terroristic threats, and the police and press did and said nothing about it.  If they requested police protection at taxpayer expense for the next conference, I&#039;d fully support paying that -- and making everyone else pay that.  That is, a slight affirmative duty on the part of the government to see that the First Amendment is exercised.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave H:</p>
<p>Your point&#8217;s well-taken.</p>
<p>But I think the amount of subsidy here is probably negligible (cost of elecriticity to light the meeting room, etc.).  I once worked for a group called the Atlantic Legal Foundation that challenged student-fee subsidies for the on-campus &#8220;PIRG&#8221; (public interest research group, a liberal outfit).  Conservative students understandably didn&#8217;t want their money going to support such a group.  The (3rd Circuit?) decided to ban forced funding for off-campus lobbying activity, which went too far, but kept it for on-campus stuff since that advanced the &#8220;educational mission&#8221; of the college.</p>
<p>Anyway, I see all these points, but so long as the subsidy is minimal, I guess I&#8217;d err on the side of having as much activity is possible.  Meaning, yes, I&#8217;d have to pay a small amount to support a group I didn&#8217;t like.</p>
<p>For instance:  American Renaissance, a &#8220;race realist&#8221; or &#8220;white advocacy&#8221; magazine, holds bi-annual conferences.  The most recent one was shut down because of terroristic threats, and the police and press did and said nothing about it.  If they requested police protection at taxpayer expense for the next conference, I&#8217;d fully support paying that &#8212; and making everyone else pay that.  That is, a slight affirmative duty on the part of the government to see that the First Amendment is exercised.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Frank		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93451</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93451</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Only Christians.

Only whites.  No Mexicans.  Men only.  No Commies.  Irish need not apply (I know apocryphal in the US).  No blacks, no muslims, no fat chicks.

The noive of that place.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only Christians.</p>
<p>Only whites.  No Mexicans.  Men only.  No Commies.  Irish need not apply (I know apocryphal in the US).  No blacks, no muslims, no fat chicks.</p>
<p>The noive of that place.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Alexander		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93443</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93443</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I believe the importance of &quot;university support&quot; represents not only money but also access to the facilities and ability to reserve rooms.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the importance of &#8220;university support&#8221; represents not only money but also access to the facilities and ability to reserve rooms.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tracey		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93442</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tracey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93442</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Anonymous, you don&#039;t take your example far enough.  How about if a bunch of Christian fundamentalists join the gay student group, get a fundamentalist Christian elected president, and then start using the gay student group&#039;s funding to bring speakers to campus on the subject of &quot;curing&quot; homosexuality.   That&#039;s what this decision protects.  Doesn&#039;t sound so great any more, does it?  

This is not as far-fetched as it may sound to you.  I know many Jews who are very concerned about this opinion, because it means the Jewish student group will have to accept fundamentalist Christians into their fold, who would use the Jewish student group&#039;s money to fund evangelism to the Jews.  Of course, the Jewish college organization I was involved with was funded entirely by donations from parents and from the Jewish community at large, so this would not have been an issue for us, but I can definitely see it happening at, say, the University of Georgia, where (at least when I was there) the Jewish population was minimal and evangelism to the Jews was rampant.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous, you don&#8217;t take your example far enough.  How about if a bunch of Christian fundamentalists join the gay student group, get a fundamentalist Christian elected president, and then start using the gay student group&#8217;s funding to bring speakers to campus on the subject of &#8220;curing&#8221; homosexuality.   That&#8217;s what this decision protects.  Doesn&#8217;t sound so great any more, does it?  </p>
<p>This is not as far-fetched as it may sound to you.  I know many Jews who are very concerned about this opinion, because it means the Jewish student group will have to accept fundamentalist Christians into their fold, who would use the Jewish student group&#8217;s money to fund evangelism to the Jews.  Of course, the Jewish college organization I was involved with was funded entirely by donations from parents and from the Jewish community at large, so this would not have been an issue for us, but I can definitely see it happening at, say, the University of Georgia, where (at least when I was there) the Jewish population was minimal and evangelism to the Jews was rampant.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tim in Chicago		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93430</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim in Chicago]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 12:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93430</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;One wonders how it would be received if a Christian fundamentalist joined the gay student group — and made his views known at meetings...&quot;

I suspect there are Christian fundamentalist who are members of many gay student groups.  And I suspect they are welcome as long as they advocate a Christian position on gay rights.  More and more young Christians are coming to the conclusion that the mainstream conservative Christianist/political movement doesn&#039;t represent Christianity and doesn&#039;t represent their beliefs.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One wonders how it would be received if a Christian fundamentalist joined the gay student group — and made his views known at meetings&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I suspect there are Christian fundamentalist who are members of many gay student groups.  And I suspect they are welcome as long as they advocate a Christian position on gay rights.  More and more young Christians are coming to the conclusion that the mainstream conservative Christianist/political movement doesn&#8217;t represent Christianity and doesn&#8217;t represent their beliefs.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Commentor		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2010/06/christian-legal-society-v-martinez/comment-page-1/#comment-93415</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Commentor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 04:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=17983#comment-93415</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bumper,

It is only illegal to discriminate based on certain fundamental rights.  We don&#039;t have any fundamental right to force people to associate with us.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bumper,</p>
<p>It is only illegal to discriminate based on certain fundamental rights.  We don&#8217;t have any fundamental right to force people to associate with us.</p>
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