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	Comments on: Food law roundup	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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		<title>
		By: Foxfier		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123995</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Foxfier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123995</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[And if you bar them from riding in vehicles at all, the risk falls even further.

Since I can&#039;t actually read the study, but I &lt;I&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; think of several possible flaws with the study-- besides its age-- it&#039;s far from sufficient reason to enact a law. 
(Including: are &lt;I&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; the stats lumping restrained and unrestrained? [ http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4907a2.htm ]  What are the numbers involved? [who isn&#039;t familiar with the &quot;25% reduction over 5 years&quot; type argument where there are 8 yearly cases?]  Did they get raw data from USFARS, since the site doesn&#039;t offer 0-13 as age group[s]?  Has anyone done a study to double-check the USFARS data, since they don&#039;t touch on crashes without fatality in 30 days?  Given that 2/3 of child crash fatalities involve the child&#039;s driver being drunk, how likely is another law to have any effect at all? [ http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm ]  I&#039;m sure others can think of good questions.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And if you bar them from riding in vehicles at all, the risk falls even further.</p>
<p>Since I can&#8217;t actually read the study, but I <i>can</i> think of several possible flaws with the study&#8211; besides its age&#8211; it&#8217;s far from sufficient reason to enact a law.<br />
(Including: are <i>all</i> the stats lumping restrained and unrestrained? [ <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4907a2.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4907a2.htm</a> ]  What are the numbers involved? [who isn&#8217;t familiar with the &#8220;25% reduction over 5 years&#8221; type argument where there are 8 yearly cases?]  Did they get raw data from USFARS, since the site doesn&#8217;t offer 0-13 as age group[s]?  Has anyone done a study to double-check the USFARS data, since they don&#8217;t touch on crashes without fatality in 30 days?  Given that 2/3 of child crash fatalities involve the child&#8217;s driver being drunk, how likely is another law to have any effect at all? [ <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/childpas.htm</a> ]  I&#8217;m sure others can think of good questions.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ben S		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123989</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123989</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[Offtopic]
&lt;i&gt;Banning drop-side cribs and forcing 12 year olds to set in the back seat, not so much…..&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, the ban on drop-side cribs was silly.  However, I&#039;m afraid that there is &lt;a href=&quot;http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/181.abstract?ijkey=b553202eaa28e845116b5273a7f00769b01fe634&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;good reason&lt;/a&gt; to put children in the back seat (assuming you agree reasonably decreasing risk is a good reason).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[Offtopic]<br />
<i>Banning drop-side cribs and forcing 12 year olds to set in the back seat, not so much…..</i></p>
<p>Yes, the ban on drop-side cribs was silly.  However, I&#8217;m afraid that there is <a href="http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/181.abstract?ijkey=b553202eaa28e845116b5273a7f00769b01fe634" rel="nofollow">good reason</a> to put children in the back seat (assuming you agree reasonably decreasing risk is a good reason).</p>
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		<title>
		By: William Nuesslein		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123951</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William Nuesslein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123951</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The problem with polling about menu labeling is that such a requirement sounds helpful and the implementation of the program  is free on the margin. The poll would be better if it asked those who believe in menu labeling to contribute to a fund a la consumer reports to finance the project. My understanding is calorie counting isn&#039;t effective in that weight watchers programs based on measuring food intake did not work all that well.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with polling about menu labeling is that such a requirement sounds helpful and the implementation of the program  is free on the margin. The poll would be better if it asked those who believe in menu labeling to contribute to a fund a la consumer reports to finance the project. My understanding is calorie counting isn&#8217;t effective in that weight watchers programs based on measuring food intake did not work all that well.</p>
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		By: Bill Alexander		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123917</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 00:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123917</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The problem with believing polls is they are very subject to manipulation in how the question is ask and who is ask and when and even who is doing the asking.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with believing polls is they are very subject to manipulation in how the question is ask and who is ask and when and even who is doing the asking.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Foxfier		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123915</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Foxfier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123915</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ron-
You do understand that people are unlikely to sign a petition for something they wouldn&#039;t support in a poll, right?

&lt;I&gt;I don’t think you have the idea of “constitutional right” squared away, either. No one is suggesting there the federal government cannot require labeling. &lt;/i&gt;

1) You didn&#039;t bring up if the Feds can require labeling, you brought up a possible majority desire for something as a justification for doing it.
2) You didn&#039;t address the flip-side of your claim-- you point out there&#039;s no enumerated right to sell food without telling someone what it is; I point out that there&#039;s no enumerated right to force someone to tell you what is in food in order to offer it for sale.  Probably because the constitution didn&#039;t touch on selling food, with or without labeling laws to be determined at a later time.
3) Might want to go easy on your high horse- you might get your nose taken off, holding it up so high.  A constitutional right is one which the gov&#039;t is not allowed to be legally denied by that government.  The lack of a constitutional right to a specific thing does not automatically mean that the flip side &lt;I&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a right, nor does it mean the gov&#039;t has the power to do anything that isn&#039;t specifically protected-- especially under the US constitution, with the whole delegated powers thing.  

The public can will stuff all it wants-- it&#039;s one of the flaws of pure democracy, and why we &lt;I&gt;aren&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; one.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron-<br />
You do understand that people are unlikely to sign a petition for something they wouldn&#8217;t support in a poll, right?</p>
<p><i>I don’t think you have the idea of “constitutional right” squared away, either. No one is suggesting there the federal government cannot require labeling. </i></p>
<p>1) You didn&#8217;t bring up if the Feds can require labeling, you brought up a possible majority desire for something as a justification for doing it.<br />
2) You didn&#8217;t address the flip-side of your claim&#8211; you point out there&#8217;s no enumerated right to sell food without telling someone what it is; I point out that there&#8217;s no enumerated right to force someone to tell you what is in food in order to offer it for sale.  Probably because the constitution didn&#8217;t touch on selling food, with or without labeling laws to be determined at a later time.<br />
3) Might want to go easy on your high horse- you might get your nose taken off, holding it up so high.  A constitutional right is one which the gov&#8217;t is not allowed to be legally denied by that government.  The lack of a constitutional right to a specific thing does not automatically mean that the flip side <i>is</i> a right, nor does it mean the gov&#8217;t has the power to do anything that isn&#8217;t specifically protected&#8211; especially under the US constitution, with the whole delegated powers thing.  </p>
<p>The public can will stuff all it wants&#8211; it&#8217;s one of the flaws of pure democracy, and why we <i>aren&#8217;t</i> one.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ron Miller		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123902</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ron Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123902</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Foxfier, you do understand the difference between a petition and a poll, right?

I don&#039;t think you have the idea of &quot;constitutional right&quot; squared away, either.  No one is suggesting there the federal government cannot require labeling.   The question here is whether they should.  

(I agree with you on loading poll questions.  Still, I think - and I don&#039;t know but I think - these polls do reflect the will of the public.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Foxfier, you do understand the difference between a petition and a poll, right?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you have the idea of &#8220;constitutional right&#8221; squared away, either.  No one is suggesting there the federal government cannot require labeling.   The question here is whether they should.  </p>
<p>(I agree with you on loading poll questions.  Still, I think &#8211; and I don&#8217;t know but I think &#8211; these polls do reflect the will of the public.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Foxfier		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123899</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Foxfier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123899</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;Since I don’t think there is a constitutional right to sell food and not tell us what it is, should the voice of the people matter more here. &lt;/i&gt;

Is there a constitutional right to force everyone who wants to sell food to pay for what the majority wants?  &quot;Food sellers&quot; are people too, after all, and we&#039;re not a pure democracy where 51% can vote the other 49% into slavery.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Since I don’t think there is a constitutional right to sell food and not tell us what it is, should the voice of the people matter more here. </i></p>
<p>Is there a constitutional right to force everyone who wants to sell food to pay for what the majority wants?  &#8220;Food sellers&#8221; are people too, after all, and we&#8217;re not a pure democracy where 51% can vote the other 49% into slavery.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Foxfier		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123898</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Foxfier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123898</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt; But I saw an opinion poll that says that 83% of people favor comprehensive menu labeling.&lt;/i&gt;

You HAVE seen the petitions to ban &quot;Dihydrogen monoxide,&quot; right?

Give me the money, and I can probably get an opinion poll that that says most anything.  That it&#039;s something as nebulous as &quot;comprehensive menu labeling&quot; would make it easier....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> But I saw an opinion poll that says that 83% of people favor comprehensive menu labeling.</i></p>
<p>You HAVE seen the petitions to ban &#8220;Dihydrogen monoxide,&#8221; right?</p>
<p>Give me the money, and I can probably get an opinion poll that that says most anything.  That it&#8217;s something as nebulous as &#8220;comprehensive menu labeling&#8221; would make it easier&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ron Miller		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123883</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ron Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123883</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[We don&#039;t defer to the people blindly.  It is why we have a constitution and all. Sometimes the voice of the people is the voice of madness.  But I saw an opinion poll that says that 83% of people favor comprehensive menu labeling.  Since I don&#039;t think there is a constitutional right to sell food and not tell us what it is, should the voice of the people matter more here.  You might think it is bad for the economy, bad for these small (not really small but let&#039;s not break the narrative) businesses.  But that is just one consideration.  Hillary Clinton said, &quot;It is NOT just about the economy, stupid.&quot;   Of course, she is right.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t defer to the people blindly.  It is why we have a constitution and all. Sometimes the voice of the people is the voice of madness.  But I saw an opinion poll that says that 83% of people favor comprehensive menu labeling.  Since I don&#8217;t think there is a constitutional right to sell food and not tell us what it is, should the voice of the people matter more here.  You might think it is bad for the economy, bad for these small (not really small but let&#8217;s not break the narrative) businesses.  But that is just one consideration.  Hillary Clinton said, &#8220;It is NOT just about the economy, stupid.&#8221;   Of course, she is right.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bumper		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2011/07/food-law-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-123872</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bumper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 01:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=23774#comment-123872</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Nec audiendi qui solent dicere, Vox populi, vox Dei, quum tumultuositas vulgi semper insaniae proxima sit.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nec audiendi qui solent dicere, Vox populi, vox Dei, quum tumultuositas vulgi semper insaniae proxima sit.</p>
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