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	<title>
	Comments on: Elizabeth Warren law license flap	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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		<title>
		By: Hugo S. Cunningham		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174481</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hugo S. Cunningham]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174481</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There is a note of desperation in some of the Brown campaign&#039;s recent attacks on Warren.  He has more of the common touch than she does, but that may no longer be sufficient in a State leaning heavily toward Obama.

Brown has attacked Warren for negotiating, on behalf of Traveler&#039;s Insurance, a $500 million dollar trust fund to handle asbestos claims in exchange for an end to lawsuits.  Most Republicans would favor it-- reasonable payouts to everyone who deserves them, rather than a handful of jackpot verdicts, leaving nothing but a bankrupt company for most legitimate claimants.  But Brown is grasping at straws to parry Warren&#039;s equally demogogic claim (resonating with Obama&#039;s campaign) that our economic troubles would be over if only &quot;Scott Brown and the Republicans&quot; would stop shielding &quot;billionaires&quot; from being taxed their &quot;fair share.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a note of desperation in some of the Brown campaign&#8217;s recent attacks on Warren.  He has more of the common touch than she does, but that may no longer be sufficient in a State leaning heavily toward Obama.</p>
<p>Brown has attacked Warren for negotiating, on behalf of Traveler&#8217;s Insurance, a $500 million dollar trust fund to handle asbestos claims in exchange for an end to lawsuits.  Most Republicans would favor it&#8211; reasonable payouts to everyone who deserves them, rather than a handful of jackpot verdicts, leaving nothing but a bankrupt company for most legitimate claimants.  But Brown is grasping at straws to parry Warren&#8217;s equally demogogic claim (resonating with Obama&#8217;s campaign) that our economic troubles would be over if only &#8220;Scott Brown and the Republicans&#8221; would stop shielding &#8220;billionaires&#8221; from being taxed their &#8220;fair share.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doggerel		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174345</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doggerel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2012 21:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174345</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh what tangled webs we create
when we seek to regulate

keep your lawsuit and your will
safe within the lawyers guild

Where&#039;s your office? in which court
is your contract or  your tort

If your practice crosses state lines
will you incurs their dues or fines

Split those hairs, quite pathetic
this we call, legal ethics]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh what tangled webs we create<br />
when we seek to regulate</p>
<p>keep your lawsuit and your will<br />
safe within the lawyers guild</p>
<p>Where&#8217;s your office? in which court<br />
is your contract or  your tort</p>
<p>If your practice crosses state lines<br />
will you incurs their dues or fines</p>
<p>Split those hairs, quite pathetic<br />
this we call, legal ethics</p>
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		<title>
		By: thufir_hawat		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174341</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[thufir_hawat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2012 17:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174341</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Speaking only for Texas, an out of state lawyer admitted to the federal courts can practice in the federal courts if they are only applying federal law. For example, immigration, certain criminal statutes,  tax, and patent/ip, do not implicate state law.

It becomes a little murky w/r/t bankruptcy where, for example, the Code provides priority but state law determines exemptions. Even more murky are the Code provisions that allow non-attorney bankruptcy petition preparers and administrative activities under 9010. 

As a practical matter, however, the federal courts have taken the position that they can manage their own dockets (thank you very much) and don&#039;t really need the intervention of the state unauthorized practice of law committees.  See, e.g., UPLC v. Paul Mason &#038; Associates, Inc., 46 F.3d 469, 472 (5th Cir.), where the Court held that what is the practice of law in Bankruptcy court is not determined by Texas law, but rather by federal law. So even if she &quot;ran afoul of MA rules&quot; and the state committee decided to seek an injunction, federal courts have shown a certain ambivalence towards being told how to run their dockets.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking only for Texas, an out of state lawyer admitted to the federal courts can practice in the federal courts if they are only applying federal law. For example, immigration, certain criminal statutes,  tax, and patent/ip, do not implicate state law.</p>
<p>It becomes a little murky w/r/t bankruptcy where, for example, the Code provides priority but state law determines exemptions. Even more murky are the Code provisions that allow non-attorney bankruptcy petition preparers and administrative activities under 9010. </p>
<p>As a practical matter, however, the federal courts have taken the position that they can manage their own dockets (thank you very much) and don&#8217;t really need the intervention of the state unauthorized practice of law committees.  See, e.g., UPLC v. Paul Mason &amp; Associates, Inc., 46 F.3d 469, 472 (5th Cir.), where the Court held that what is the practice of law in Bankruptcy court is not determined by Texas law, but rather by federal law. So even if she &#8220;ran afoul of MA rules&#8221; and the state committee decided to seek an injunction, federal courts have shown a certain ambivalence towards being told how to run their dockets.</p>
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		<title>
		By: bridget		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174264</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bridget]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174264</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Massachusetts does not require all attorneys within its borders to be &lt;I&gt;licensed&lt;/i&gt;, but it does unambiguously require all those who are serving &quot;as counsel&quot; or as &quot;in house counsel&quot; to be &lt;i&gt;registered&lt;/i&gt; with the Board of Bar Overseers and to pay annual fees equal to the dues paid by MA-licensed attorneys.  That provision applies regardless of the location of the client who is being represented; it is triggered when the foreign-licensed attorney opens up an office within the state. 

So even if her NJ law license was active (we know she went &quot;inactive&quot; in Texas in 1992, despite probably not being eligible for that status), she still ran afoul of MA rules.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Massachusetts does not require all attorneys within its borders to be <i>licensed</i>, but it does unambiguously require all those who are serving &#8220;as counsel&#8221; or as &#8220;in house counsel&#8221; to be <i>registered</i> with the Board of Bar Overseers and to pay annual fees equal to the dues paid by MA-licensed attorneys.  That provision applies regardless of the location of the client who is being represented; it is triggered when the foreign-licensed attorney opens up an office within the state. </p>
<p>So even if her NJ law license was active (we know she went &#8220;inactive&#8221; in Texas in 1992, despite probably not being eligible for that status), she still ran afoul of MA rules.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jack Wilson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174263</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack Wilson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174263</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What is interesting to me as a non-lawyer is how complicated this issue seems to be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is interesting to me as a non-lawyer is how complicated this issue seems to be.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Rohan		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174252</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Rohan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174252</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As Walter Olson pointed out above, apparently even Mark Thompson at League of Ordinary Gentlemen has changed his mind:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-defender-with-this-bombshell-i-would-no-longer-view-the-case-against-her-as-weak/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Walter Olson pointed out above, apparently even Mark Thompson at League of Ordinary Gentlemen has changed his mind:</p>
<p><a href="http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-defender-with-this-bombshell-i-would-no-longer-view-the-case-against-her-as-weak/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-defender-with-this-bombshell-i-would-no-longer-view-the-case-against-her-as-weak/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: John Steele		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174228</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Steele]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 00:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174228</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve tried to respond to the latest issue. At Legal Ethics Forum.

http://www.legalethicsforum.com/blog/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-and-upl.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve tried to respond to the latest issue. At Legal Ethics Forum.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.legalethicsforum.com/blog/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-and-upl.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.legalethicsforum.com/blog/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-and-upl.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter Olson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174215</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Olson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174215</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thompson is now taking the allegations &lt;a href=&quot;http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/09/new-facts-on-the-elizabeth-warren-upl-issue/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more seriously&lt;/a&gt; based on new information &lt;a href=&quot;http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-represented-massachusetts-client-in-massachusetts/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;unearthed&lt;/a&gt; by William Jacobson at Legal Insurrection about Warren&#039;s representation of a Massachusetts client on issues arising from Massachusetts law. (Thanks to a reader for the tipoff.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thompson is now taking the allegations <a href="http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/09/new-facts-on-the-elizabeth-warren-upl-issue/" rel="nofollow">more seriously</a> based on new information <a href="http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-represented-massachusetts-client-in-massachusetts/" rel="nofollow">unearthed</a> by William Jacobson at Legal Insurrection about Warren&#8217;s representation of a Massachusetts client on issues arising from Massachusetts law. (Thanks to a reader for the tipoff.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Xmas		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174206</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Xmas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174206</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The way I&#039;m seeing this, then, is she&#039;ll be in deep trouble if she was counsel on a case going through any State&#039;s court system.   She&#039;ll be safe on Federal preemption grounds on any Federal case, but the Massachusetts law on legal licensing makes it clear that you need to be part of the MA bar if your office is located in Massachusetts and you&#039;re offering legal advice.

So the question is, &quot;has Elizabeth Warren only worked on bankruptcy cases?&quot;  That is her area of expertise, and those are all handled under the Federal court system (I believe).  It will only take a brief, bill, or other piece of paper in regards to some other type of case in any other state&#039;s court system from her with her Massachusetts address to show she&#039;s broken the law.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way I&#8217;m seeing this, then, is she&#8217;ll be in deep trouble if she was counsel on a case going through any State&#8217;s court system.   She&#8217;ll be safe on Federal preemption grounds on any Federal case, but the Massachusetts law on legal licensing makes it clear that you need to be part of the MA bar if your office is located in Massachusetts and you&#8217;re offering legal advice.</p>
<p>So the question is, &#8220;has Elizabeth Warren only worked on bankruptcy cases?&#8221;  That is her area of expertise, and those are all handled under the Federal court system (I believe).  It will only take a brief, bill, or other piece of paper in regards to some other type of case in any other state&#8217;s court system from her with her Massachusetts address to show she&#8217;s broken the law.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Steele		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/09/elizabeth-warren-law-license-flap/comment-page-1/#comment-174195</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Steele]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 04:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33085#comment-174195</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[DC Lawyer, thanks again for posting. 

As I&#039;ve been saying, to see if Warren committed UPL, one of the things you would need to do is list all the courts where she practiced and see if she complied with the admission rules  of that court when she practiced there. With all respect and collegiality toward you, given that you&#039;ve been polite and helpful, it is not enough to argue by analogy based upon some court that denied admission to some lawyer at some time. We&#039;d need to look at the local rules regarding admission of each court where she appeared. For example, some federal courts have taken the position that as long as you had some state license at the time you were admitted to that federal court you can keep practicing there even after your state license lapsed. And, for another example, what the USDC for the District of Columbia does with admissions does not bind the US Supreme Court. So if Warren was admitted to the SCOTUS court, the fact that she might be ineligible for the USDC for DC is not governing.

I&#039;ve said all along that it&#039;s possible that Warrren failed to properly secure admission into the courts in which she has practiced. But none of us can conclude that she practiced UPL at this point, based upon what her critics have been saying.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DC Lawyer, thanks again for posting. </p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve been saying, to see if Warren committed UPL, one of the things you would need to do is list all the courts where she practiced and see if she complied with the admission rules  of that court when she practiced there. With all respect and collegiality toward you, given that you&#8217;ve been polite and helpful, it is not enough to argue by analogy based upon some court that denied admission to some lawyer at some time. We&#8217;d need to look at the local rules regarding admission of each court where she appeared. For example, some federal courts have taken the position that as long as you had some state license at the time you were admitted to that federal court you can keep practicing there even after your state license lapsed. And, for another example, what the USDC for the District of Columbia does with admissions does not bind the US Supreme Court. So if Warren was admitted to the SCOTUS court, the fact that she might be ineligible for the USDC for DC is not governing.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve said all along that it&#8217;s possible that Warrren failed to properly secure admission into the courts in which she has practiced. But none of us can conclude that she practiced UPL at this point, based upon what her critics have been saying.</p>
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