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	<title>
	Comments on: Evading CAFA, class action lawyers also put ethics at risk	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:14:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Vern Dennis		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-188117</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vern Dennis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-188117</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I do believe that Class Action Lawsuitsa should be, if not abolished completely, then circumscribed in such a manner that there truly is a commonality of claimants and be limited to Federal Court 

As one who has been the  &quot;beneficiary&quot; of several class actions, where I saw stocks in which I had invested lose 15-40% of their value, in exchange for which I received coupons for $5 off on the purchase of a 757 or a miniature submarine, I don&#039;t see how anyone can say with a straight face, that the plaintiff bar is doing anything other than lining the pockets of its members 

I expect Max to dissent - he&#039;s a brave lawyer who accepts comments on his own blog - but only if you agree with him. He isn&#039;t brave enough to admit when he&#039;s wrong 
------
Ron  Miller said 
 &quot;Yes, DEM, trial lawyers are in only for the money, as opposed to doctors, Indian chiefs, defense lawyers and plumbers. &quot;

I agree but at least doctors, plumbers and Indian chiefs don&#039;t spout off pious nonsense about seeking justice for the victims]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do believe that Class Action Lawsuitsa should be, if not abolished completely, then circumscribed in such a manner that there truly is a commonality of claimants and be limited to Federal Court </p>
<p>As one who has been the  &#8220;beneficiary&#8221; of several class actions, where I saw stocks in which I had invested lose 15-40% of their value, in exchange for which I received coupons for $5 off on the purchase of a 757 or a miniature submarine, I don&#8217;t see how anyone can say with a straight face, that the plaintiff bar is doing anything other than lining the pockets of its members </p>
<p>I expect Max to dissent &#8211; he&#8217;s a brave lawyer who accepts comments on his own blog &#8211; but only if you agree with him. He isn&#8217;t brave enough to admit when he&#8217;s wrong<br />
&#8212;&#8212;<br />
Ron  Miller said<br />
 &#8220;Yes, DEM, trial lawyers are in only for the money, as opposed to doctors, Indian chiefs, defense lawyers and plumbers. &#8221;</p>
<p>I agree but at least doctors, plumbers and Indian chiefs don&#8217;t spout off pious nonsense about seeking justice for the victims</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-187857</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 15:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-187857</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In his updated blog post, Max states about this thread: &quot;Ted slyly avoids answering in those comments if he thinks class actions should be abolished.&quot; I honestly thought I answered that question in comments 13 and 20 above, as well as in published interviews with the Wall Street Journal and legal newspapers, but I&#039;ll explicitly state it so that Max can&#039;t claim otherwise: I don&#039;t think class actions should be abolished.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In his updated blog post, Max states about this thread: &#8220;Ted slyly avoids answering in those comments if he thinks class actions should be abolished.&#8221; I honestly thought I answered that question in comments 13 and 20 above, as well as in published interviews with the Wall Street Journal and legal newspapers, but I&#8217;ll explicitly state it so that Max can&#8217;t claim otherwise: I don&#8217;t think class actions should be abolished.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-187544</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-187544</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sorry, guy. I grew up wanting to be the next Ralph Nader or Marvin Zindler, reading Consumer Reports cover to cover; you can find early 1990s Usenet posts on line where I parroted the anti tort reform talking points. Then I saw the legal system firsthand and discovered how badly the civil justice system was hurting consumers, and you get the consumer advocate you see today. If all I cared about was saving defendants&#039; bacon, I wouldn&#039;t have repped plaintiffs in NVIDIA, or Classmates.com, or Dewey v VW. 

I have lots and lots of ideas in lots and lots of areas I don&#039;t act on. I neither have the hours of the day nor the minions to execute more than a small fraction of my ideas. I can let that frustrate and paralyze me, or I can act on the ideas I find most fun and rewarding. I&#039;ve discovered I&#039;m happier in life when I&#039;m doing things I like to do. I like being my own boss and master of my own schedule, like appellate work where I get to make only the arguments I believe are Platonically correct, and like preventing lawyers from ripping off their clients; I don&#039;t like negotiating non-disclosure agreements and cold-calling strangers, asking people for favors, dealing with discovery disputes or junior associates with easily bruised egos, or being too busy to play video games. (Cf. Jonathan Rauch on introversion.) Someday a smart and honest plaintiffs&#039; lawyer will persuade me to trust him, sit down with me for ten hours, and make us both a lot of money. Max would apparently prefer to persuade me not to trust him by gratuitously insulting me and calling me a liar in the face of plenty of evidence I&#039;m telling the truth.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, guy. I grew up wanting to be the next Ralph Nader or Marvin Zindler, reading Consumer Reports cover to cover; you can find early 1990s Usenet posts on line where I parroted the anti tort reform talking points. Then I saw the legal system firsthand and discovered how badly the civil justice system was hurting consumers, and you get the consumer advocate you see today. If all I cared about was saving defendants&#8217; bacon, I wouldn&#8217;t have repped plaintiffs in NVIDIA, or Classmates.com, or Dewey v VW. </p>
<p>I have lots and lots of ideas in lots and lots of areas I don&#8217;t act on. I neither have the hours of the day nor the minions to execute more than a small fraction of my ideas. I can let that frustrate and paralyze me, or I can act on the ideas I find most fun and rewarding. I&#8217;ve discovered I&#8217;m happier in life when I&#8217;m doing things I like to do. I like being my own boss and master of my own schedule, like appellate work where I get to make only the arguments I believe are Platonically correct, and like preventing lawyers from ripping off their clients; I don&#8217;t like negotiating non-disclosure agreements and cold-calling strangers, asking people for favors, dealing with discovery disputes or junior associates with easily bruised egos, or being too busy to play video games. (Cf. Jonathan Rauch on introversion.) Someday a smart and honest plaintiffs&#8217; lawyer will persuade me to trust him, sit down with me for ten hours, and make us both a lot of money. Max would apparently prefer to persuade me not to trust him by gratuitously insulting me and calling me a liar in the face of plenty of evidence I&#8217;m telling the truth.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ron Miller		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-187358</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ron Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-187358</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This argument is more mean spirited than it should be.  Let&#039;s change gears and work together to find creative ideas to get Ted&#039;s girlfriend to stop complaining about how much time she gets with him.  If that domino falls, I think the others will too.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This argument is more mean spirited than it should be.  Let&#8217;s change gears and work together to find creative ideas to get Ted&#8217;s girlfriend to stop complaining about how much time she gets with him.  If that domino falls, I think the others will too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Max Kennerly		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-187324</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max Kennerly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-187324</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So Ted has lots and lots of ideas for meritorious consumer lawsuits, but he doesn&#039;t act on them, and hasn&#039;t been able to find lawyer willing to act on them. 

Walter genuinely believes federal courts are a better forum for consumer plaintiffs.

Seriously. 

Just drop the pretense: occasionally improving a settlement is an incidental benefit; by and large, you want to destroy class actions, but you claim to be &quot;consumer advocates.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Ted has lots and lots of ideas for meritorious consumer lawsuits, but he doesn&#8217;t act on them, and hasn&#8217;t been able to find lawyer willing to act on them. </p>
<p>Walter genuinely believes federal courts are a better forum for consumer plaintiffs.</p>
<p>Seriously. </p>
<p>Just drop the pretense: occasionally improving a settlement is an incidental benefit; by and large, you want to destroy class actions, but you claim to be &#8220;consumer advocates.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ted		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-187284</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 11:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-187284</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Max either didn&#039;t read my response or is accusing me of perjury. 

Furthermore, I didn&#039;t say that I don&#039;t file class actions because they&#039;re too risky. I said doing so would take time away from my highest and best use and from what I like to do most. If Max wants to negotiate a contingent referral rate with me and take on the responsibility of finding typical adequate class representatives, and agree not to ask court approval of a settlement process that violates CCAF principles, I&#039;ll happily pass along multiple class- action ideas that are at of at least as high quality as ones I&#039;ve seen resulting in settlements with double lodestar.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max either didn&#8217;t read my response or is accusing me of perjury. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I didn&#8217;t say that I don&#8217;t file class actions because they&#8217;re too risky. I said doing so would take time away from my highest and best use and from what I like to do most. If Max wants to negotiate a contingent referral rate with me and take on the responsibility of finding typical adequate class representatives, and agree not to ask court approval of a settlement process that violates CCAF principles, I&#8217;ll happily pass along multiple class- action ideas that are at of at least as high quality as ones I&#8217;ve seen resulting in settlements with double lodestar.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter Olson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-187108</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Olson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 04:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-187108</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Did Max even read the original post? If so, he would know that consumer clients can get hurt in two separate ways when lawyers cut ethical corners in an attempt to evade Congress&#039;s intent in CAFA. First, they may wind up being held to the tactical stipulation of under-$5-million damages in cases where actual claimable damages were higher. Second, as Congress recognized when it passed CAFA, one reason some lawyers seek to forum-shop into favored state courts is that they wish to escape federal courts&#039; tougher expected scrutiny of the adequacy and loyalty of their representation and in particular the relative proportion of fees to actual recovery in an eventual settlement. This is all fairly obvious, which lends a comic aspect to Max&#039;s tone of barroom impatience (&quot;I&#039;m still waiting to hear Cato&#039;s side. Huh? Huh?&quot;)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did Max even read the original post? If so, he would know that consumer clients can get hurt in two separate ways when lawyers cut ethical corners in an attempt to evade Congress&#8217;s intent in CAFA. First, they may wind up being held to the tactical stipulation of under-$5-million damages in cases where actual claimable damages were higher. Second, as Congress recognized when it passed CAFA, one reason some lawyers seek to forum-shop into favored state courts is that they wish to escape federal courts&#8217; tougher expected scrutiny of the adequacy and loyalty of their representation and in particular the relative proportion of fees to actual recovery in an eventual settlement. This is all fairly obvious, which lends a comic aspect to Max&#8217;s tone of barroom impatience (&#8220;I&#8217;m still waiting to hear Cato&#8217;s side. Huh? Huh?&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Max Kennerly		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-186959</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max Kennerly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 21:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-186959</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Seeing Ted&#039;s comments here, however, I updated my post on him to note that his objections did indeed modify the settlement to enable more claims. So there&#039;s that. 

But in the process he admits my point: he&#039;s not in the business of arguing for &quot;expanding&quot; class actions, and he thinks there are still &quot;meritless&quot; class actions out there. The only reasonable interpretation of these two arguments is that he wants to further restrict consumer rights; since he gives no arguments at all for when a class should be certified or liability should attach, the assumption has to be he thinks both should be abolished. Some &quot;consumer advocate.&quot;

He&#039;s also admitted he&#039;s never going to file a class action, while also bemoaning how class action work doesn&#039;t pay well because it&#039;s risky and the fees aren&#039;t consistent with the work. You&#039;re preaching to the choir, Ted: I don&#039;t file them either, because they&#039;re too risky and the fees are too low! You, however, think the fewer class actions, the better, regardless of merit; I fret when companies get away with fraud.

Next up is CATO. I&#039;m dying to hear how forcing more class actions into federal court — the focus of their amicus brief — is somehow good for consumers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing Ted&#8217;s comments here, however, I updated my post on him to note that his objections did indeed modify the settlement to enable more claims. So there&#8217;s that. </p>
<p>But in the process he admits my point: he&#8217;s not in the business of arguing for &#8220;expanding&#8221; class actions, and he thinks there are still &#8220;meritless&#8221; class actions out there. The only reasonable interpretation of these two arguments is that he wants to further restrict consumer rights; since he gives no arguments at all for when a class should be certified or liability should attach, the assumption has to be he thinks both should be abolished. Some &#8220;consumer advocate.&#8221;</p>
<p>He&#8217;s also admitted he&#8217;s never going to file a class action, while also bemoaning how class action work doesn&#8217;t pay well because it&#8217;s risky and the fees aren&#8217;t consistent with the work. You&#8217;re preaching to the choir, Ted: I don&#8217;t file them either, because they&#8217;re too risky and the fees are too low! You, however, think the fewer class actions, the better, regardless of merit; I fret when companies get away with fraud.</p>
<p>Next up is CATO. I&#8217;m dying to hear how forcing more class actions into federal court — the focus of their amicus brief — is somehow good for consumers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ron Miller		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-186874</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ron Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-186874</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, DEM, trial lawyers are in only for the money, as opposed to doctors, Indian chiefs, defense lawyers and plumbers.  

I find life works best when we make broad generalizations about entire professions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, DEM, trial lawyers are in only for the money, as opposed to doctors, Indian chiefs, defense lawyers and plumbers.  </p>
<p>I find life works best when we make broad generalizations about entire professions.</p>
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		<title>
		By: DEM		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2012/11/class-action-lawyers-face-triple-threat-at-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-186841</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DEM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=33835#comment-186841</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;That’s fine, that’s your right, but quit pretending that you’re standing up for the little guy. You think the little guy should have no rights against the big guy. Why can’t you folks be honest about what you want?&quot;
_________________

One could say the same about virtually every plaintiffs&#039; lawyer.  Why can&#039;t they be honest about what they want -- fees, fees, and more fees?  They want the &quot;little guy&quot; to have rights against the &quot;big guy&quot; so long as it greases the pockets of the trial bar.  The &quot;standing up for the little guy&quot; shtick is tiresome already.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That’s fine, that’s your right, but quit pretending that you’re standing up for the little guy. You think the little guy should have no rights against the big guy. Why can’t you folks be honest about what you want?&#8221;<br />
_________________</p>
<p>One could say the same about virtually every plaintiffs&#8217; lawyer.  Why can&#8217;t they be honest about what they want &#8212; fees, fees, and more fees?  They want the &#8220;little guy&#8221; to have rights against the &#8220;big guy&#8221; so long as it greases the pockets of the trial bar.  The &#8220;standing up for the little guy&#8221; shtick is tiresome already.</p>
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