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	<title>
	Comments on: More thoughts on the Westover Winery case	</title>
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	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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		<title>
		By: William		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-2/#comment-304635</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 13:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304635</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[All five or six of the criteria for interns was met by the winery but the labor department would not even consider them.  They totally ignored them and the fact the winery did meet the criteria.  Second, all the people who went through the class signed the document with the exact criteria required for interns, provided their own health insurance etc... so they would be covered in case of injury.  Third we are talking about small business who cannot spend thousands of dollars to hire expensive lawyers so they can&#039;t even get out of the gate sometimes.  Fourth, this winery has a consultant who has set up hundreds of wineries and breweries as well as some attorney&#039;s and they did not know of the law.  You might say, they were not the best in the field but keep in mind most attorney politicians were not aware of the volunteer law until it was brought to their attention.  You might say, &quot;they should know.&quot; but if it was that simple, why is this issue getting so much press and surprise nationwide.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All five or six of the criteria for interns was met by the winery but the labor department would not even consider them.  They totally ignored them and the fact the winery did meet the criteria.  Second, all the people who went through the class signed the document with the exact criteria required for interns, provided their own health insurance etc&#8230; so they would be covered in case of injury.  Third we are talking about small business who cannot spend thousands of dollars to hire expensive lawyers so they can&#8217;t even get out of the gate sometimes.  Fourth, this winery has a consultant who has set up hundreds of wineries and breweries as well as some attorney&#8217;s and they did not know of the law.  You might say, they were not the best in the field but keep in mind most attorney politicians were not aware of the volunteer law until it was brought to their attention.  You might say, &#8220;they should know.&#8221; but if it was that simple, why is this issue getting so much press and surprise nationwide.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-2/#comment-304594</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 05:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304594</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Dept of Labor has a clear 2-page fact sheet regarding the 6 criteria that must be met for  unpaid interns.   http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf

Some of the winery&#039;s volunteers were volunteer interns taking a class at the winery and doing hands-on learning (work).   The DOL  states &quot;if the interns are engaged in the operations of the employer or are performing productive work (for example, filing, performing other clerical work, or assisting customers),  then the fact that they may be receiving some benefits in the form of a new skill or improved work habits *will not exclude them* from the FLSA’s minimum wage and overtime requirements because the employer benefits from the interns’ work. &quot;  (Emphasis is mine.)

So pouring wine is assisting customers, and therefore is not exempt from minimum wage requirements.

The insurance/liability issue is no small  matter.  Suppose one of these middle-aged professional volunteers hurt his back lifting a bucket of grapes to pour into the mixer.   If the winery had no work comp insurance for that volunteer, the volunteer&#039;s regular employer would cover the injury either via health insurance or work comp insurance, or the state would cover the injury via state health insurance.    

The health insurance company would want to know if the claim was due to an injury, and the employer&#039;s work comp insurance would want to know where and how the injury occurred.  If the employee lies and says he got injured at his regular job (and not the winery), the employer bears the cost of the injury.   If the employee admits he was hurt at the winery, his health insurance may cover some/most of the costs, and his regular job may be impacted due to his absence or decreased skills from the injury.    Either way another business which complies with labor laws will bear the cost for the business that doesn&#039;t comply with labor laws.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Dept of Labor has a clear 2-page fact sheet regarding the 6 criteria that must be met for  unpaid interns.   <a href="http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf</a></p>
<p>Some of the winery&#8217;s volunteers were volunteer interns taking a class at the winery and doing hands-on learning (work).   The DOL  states &#8220;if the interns are engaged in the operations of the employer or are performing productive work (for example, filing, performing other clerical work, or assisting customers),  then the fact that they may be receiving some benefits in the form of a new skill or improved work habits *will not exclude them* from the FLSA’s minimum wage and overtime requirements because the employer benefits from the interns’ work. &#8221;  (Emphasis is mine.)</p>
<p>So pouring wine is assisting customers, and therefore is not exempt from minimum wage requirements.</p>
<p>The insurance/liability issue is no small  matter.  Suppose one of these middle-aged professional volunteers hurt his back lifting a bucket of grapes to pour into the mixer.   If the winery had no work comp insurance for that volunteer, the volunteer&#8217;s regular employer would cover the injury either via health insurance or work comp insurance, or the state would cover the injury via state health insurance.    </p>
<p>The health insurance company would want to know if the claim was due to an injury, and the employer&#8217;s work comp insurance would want to know where and how the injury occurred.  If the employee lies and says he got injured at his regular job (and not the winery), the employer bears the cost of the injury.   If the employee admits he was hurt at the winery, his health insurance may cover some/most of the costs, and his regular job may be impacted due to his absence or decreased skills from the injury.    Either way another business which complies with labor laws will bear the cost for the business that doesn&#8217;t comply with labor laws.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zach		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-2/#comment-304566</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 01:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304566</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree that the laws governing many activities are too voluminous and pose difficulties for businesses who want to comply, but aren&#039;t up on every latest nuance. But it&#039;s simply not a valid excuse for a business owner to not know that he has to pay the people who works for him, no matter whether he calls it volunteering or not. 

Common sense should tell any employer that there is an entire field called &quot;labor law&quot; with compliance with the minimum wage as a major subfield. Logic would dictate that if you plan to pay people to work for less than the minimum wage (i.e. for free), you just might want to do a little more research to see if your plan was legal. About 30 seconds with Google would direct you to this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;handy page&lt;/a&gt; from the DOL (it&#039;s the first hit for &quot;for profit volunteer&quot; and &quot;volunteer labor&quot; among other queries). Failing that, a quick call to the state labor department&#039;s handy toll-free number would turn up similar information (they are, at least in California, quite helpful). Reading that page (and the linked page about trainees) should send a pretty clear message that what you&#039;re thinking about doing is probably not legal. 

We&#039;re not talking about minor record-keeping violations like not providing perfect paystubs and we&#039;re not talking about a thousand-page environmental regulation here. In those kinds of situations, I could completely buy your argument that the law is too hard for ordinary people to comply with. Here, however, we&#039;re talking about an issue that raises some pretty obvious red flags, with short and easy-to-read guidance readily available from the government.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the laws governing many activities are too voluminous and pose difficulties for businesses who want to comply, but aren&#8217;t up on every latest nuance. But it&#8217;s simply not a valid excuse for a business owner to not know that he has to pay the people who works for him, no matter whether he calls it volunteering or not. </p>
<p>Common sense should tell any employer that there is an entire field called &#8220;labor law&#8221; with compliance with the minimum wage as a major subfield. Logic would dictate that if you plan to pay people to work for less than the minimum wage (i.e. for free), you just might want to do a little more research to see if your plan was legal. About 30 seconds with Google would direct you to this <a href="http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp" rel="nofollow">handy page</a> from the DOL (it&#8217;s the first hit for &#8220;for profit volunteer&#8221; and &#8220;volunteer labor&#8221; among other queries). Failing that, a quick call to the state labor department&#8217;s handy toll-free number would turn up similar information (they are, at least in California, quite helpful). Reading that page (and the linked page about trainees) should send a pretty clear message that what you&#8217;re thinking about doing is probably not legal. </p>
<p>We&#8217;re not talking about minor record-keeping violations like not providing perfect paystubs and we&#8217;re not talking about a thousand-page environmental regulation here. In those kinds of situations, I could completely buy your argument that the law is too hard for ordinary people to comply with. Here, however, we&#8217;re talking about an issue that raises some pretty obvious red flags, with short and easy-to-read guidance readily available from the government.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter Olson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-1/#comment-304548</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Olson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 00:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304548</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;The section doesn’t address volunteers ....&quot;  Which is kind of the point, isn&#039;t it? Once &quot;the laws governing your business&quot; get to be sufficiently voluminous, remote from any grounding in mala in se, and subject to doctrinal change or shifts in enforcement, the advice to &quot;abide by them&quot; becomes empty, because you won&#039;t actually know of any sure way to stay in compliance.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The section doesn’t address volunteers &#8230;.&#8221;  Which is kind of the point, isn&#8217;t it? Once &#8220;the laws governing your business&#8221; get to be sufficiently voluminous, remote from any grounding in mala in se, and subject to doctrinal change or shifts in enforcement, the advice to &#8220;abide by them&#8221; becomes empty, because you won&#8217;t actually know of any sure way to stay in compliance.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-1/#comment-304544</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 00:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304544</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Anyone who sets up a winery business knows that there are various licenses and permits related to such a business.    It&#039;s not a simple undertaking.  There are lawyers devoted just to wine law.    So as a free educational service, the &quot;Stoel Rives Winery Team developed THE LAW OF WINE: A GUIDE TO BUSINESS AND LEGAL ISSUES.&quot;   http://www.stoel.com/Files/LawofWine_California.pdf

Starting at page 108 is the discussion about Employment Law for the winery.   &quot;The first step to avoid problems is to know the laws that govern your business and abide by them.&quot;  The section doesn&#039;t address volunteers but does discuss independent contractors.

By the way, I am not affiliated with this or any law firm.  I&#039;m just passing along helpful information.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who sets up a winery business knows that there are various licenses and permits related to such a business.    It&#8217;s not a simple undertaking.  There are lawyers devoted just to wine law.    So as a free educational service, the &#8220;Stoel Rives Winery Team developed THE LAW OF WINE: A GUIDE TO BUSINESS AND LEGAL ISSUES.&#8221;   <a href="http://www.stoel.com/Files/LawofWine_California.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.stoel.com/Files/LawofWine_California.pdf</a></p>
<p>Starting at page 108 is the discussion about Employment Law for the winery.   &#8220;The first step to avoid problems is to know the laws that govern your business and abide by them.&#8221;  The section doesn&#8217;t address volunteers but does discuss independent contractors.</p>
<p>By the way, I am not affiliated with this or any law firm.  I&#8217;m just passing along helpful information.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-1/#comment-304520</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304520</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@DEM

It already happens, just substitute wine or food for beer, and volunteers will do all kinds of labor. To wit:

&quot;...some wineries invite volunteers to help. Entry level tasks include plucking undesirables from a conveyor belt, or operating a garden hose for cleaning. Sometimes volunteers can advance to picking fruit, driving a forklift and punching down grape skins to stir the juices in big fermenting tanks.  The work is hard, but the rewards are many. You might get a free meal, sample some wine and perhaps join in a post-harvest party. But no matter what, you&#039;ll have the satisfaction of knowing you helped a winery produce a fine vintage of Oregon or Washington wine.&quot;

http://www.oregonlive.com/mix/index.ssf/wine/volunteering_at_crush_helping_wineries_produce_a_f.html

All a business would need to do is market the ditch-digging as a satisfying educational opportunity that will lead to opportunity, and spice it up with some incentives.   Problem is:   if the business doesn&#039;t pay and insure people  for this work, it violates labor and safety laws at the federal and state levels, even if the business reclassifies a worker as a &quot;volunteer.&quot;

It seems people in the general public are confused about the context of the word &quot;volunteer.&quot;  If my friends volunteer to help me and my family move, no one cares how we arrange for these volunteers to help us.      However if I own a moving company and my friends volunteer to help my company move clients, the company is expected to compensate these volunteers for their work because a company is a legal entity with legal obligations and liabilities.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DEM</p>
<p>It already happens, just substitute wine or food for beer, and volunteers will do all kinds of labor. To wit:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;some wineries invite volunteers to help. Entry level tasks include plucking undesirables from a conveyor belt, or operating a garden hose for cleaning. Sometimes volunteers can advance to picking fruit, driving a forklift and punching down grape skins to stir the juices in big fermenting tanks.  The work is hard, but the rewards are many. You might get a free meal, sample some wine and perhaps join in a post-harvest party. But no matter what, you&#8217;ll have the satisfaction of knowing you helped a winery produce a fine vintage of Oregon or Washington wine.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.oregonlive.com/mix/index.ssf/wine/volunteering_at_crush_helping_wineries_produce_a_f.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.oregonlive.com/mix/index.ssf/wine/volunteering_at_crush_helping_wineries_produce_a_f.html</a></p>
<p>All a business would need to do is market the ditch-digging as a satisfying educational opportunity that will lead to opportunity, and spice it up with some incentives.   Problem is:   if the business doesn&#8217;t pay and insure people  for this work, it violates labor and safety laws at the federal and state levels, even if the business reclassifies a worker as a &#8220;volunteer.&#8221;</p>
<p>It seems people in the general public are confused about the context of the word &#8220;volunteer.&#8221;  If my friends volunteer to help me and my family move, no one cares how we arrange for these volunteers to help us.      However if I own a moving company and my friends volunteer to help my company move clients, the company is expected to compensate these volunteers for their work because a company is a legal entity with legal obligations and liabilities.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William Smyth		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-1/#comment-304510</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William Smyth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 20:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304510</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This whole column demonstrates how people often give out information which is in incomplete or not correct.  Appproved Non-profits who raffle wine in or out of baskets is against the law in the state of California unless they (which most don&#039;t get) get a type 33 alcohol lic from the state ABC and must have a type 31 lic to have a wine bar.  If they make a mistake and don&#039;t get their license because they don&#039;t know about it, to issue a crippling fee to their organization.  Going back to volunteers, people should be able to do what they want on their free time and if it is pouring wine to have fun, then so be it.  Have them sign a release and have proof of insurance then all this talk of what to do if someone gets hurt is a moot point.  Judge Judy always tells people who are fighting with their landlords, if you do not like where you are living, just move!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole column demonstrates how people often give out information which is in incomplete or not correct.  Appproved Non-profits who raffle wine in or out of baskets is against the law in the state of California unless they (which most don&#8217;t get) get a type 33 alcohol lic from the state ABC and must have a type 31 lic to have a wine bar.  If they make a mistake and don&#8217;t get their license because they don&#8217;t know about it, to issue a crippling fee to their organization.  Going back to volunteers, people should be able to do what they want on their free time and if it is pouring wine to have fun, then so be it.  Have them sign a release and have proof of insurance then all this talk of what to do if someone gets hurt is a moot point.  Judge Judy always tells people who are fighting with their landlords, if you do not like where you are living, just move!</p>
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		<title>
		By: DEM		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-1/#comment-304482</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DEM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 18:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304482</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;I could probably get people to volunteer without pay to dig ditches for my business if I threw in some incentive like beer&quot;

Good thing this doomsday hypothetical is testable in the real world.  So please go ahead and make some sort of public offer of a 12 pack of Bud in exchange for a few hours&#039; worth of back-breaking labor, and let us know how many people sign up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I could probably get people to volunteer without pay to dig ditches for my business if I threw in some incentive like beer&#8221;</p>
<p>Good thing this doomsday hypothetical is testable in the real world.  So please go ahead and make some sort of public offer of a 12 pack of Bud in exchange for a few hours&#8217; worth of back-breaking labor, and let us know how many people sign up.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-1/#comment-304318</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2014 16:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304318</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Correction:  Wieckowski does practice law in his spare time but he specializes in bankruptcy chapter 13 which is different from employment law.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction:  Wieckowski does practice law in his spare time but he specializes in bankruptcy chapter 13 which is different from employment law.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2014/09/thoughts-westover-winery-case/comment-page-1/#comment-304316</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2014 16:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overlawyered.com/?p=48359#comment-304316</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If the winery were just for fun and personal wine consumption, and you weren&#039;t selling wine, then the situation would be different.  Since the winery was producing and selling wine to the public, that means it&#039;s a business.  Sounds like you can still operate the business and still teach wine-making, just without &quot;hands-on unpaid&quot; volunteers.   People can watch and learn about the process, just not actively participate unless paid similar to how apprentices get paid for learning their craft.   Part of the reason has to do with labor law, and part of the reason has to do with liability in case of injury.

I could probably get people to volunteer without pay to dig ditches for my business if I threw in some incentive like beer, or said it was for charity; however, if someone got hurt digging those ditches, I could be in for a world of hurt.   Mr. Wieckowski has worked for government most of his working life so I don&#039;t expect he&#039;d know how to set up and operate businesses.  Raffles aren&#039;t illegal in California.  The non-profit must register with the Attorney General&#039;s specific office that covers that, and &quot;90 percent of the gross receipts from these raffles go directly to beneficial or charitable purposes in California.&quot;   Any alcohol in the raffle may have rules too (can&#039;t give to minors).   http://oag.ca.gov/charities/raffles

Small biz owners everywhere benefit from educating ourselves and each other.   All the best to the winery/owner in any event.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the winery were just for fun and personal wine consumption, and you weren&#8217;t selling wine, then the situation would be different.  Since the winery was producing and selling wine to the public, that means it&#8217;s a business.  Sounds like you can still operate the business and still teach wine-making, just without &#8220;hands-on unpaid&#8221; volunteers.   People can watch and learn about the process, just not actively participate unless paid similar to how apprentices get paid for learning their craft.   Part of the reason has to do with labor law, and part of the reason has to do with liability in case of injury.</p>
<p>I could probably get people to volunteer without pay to dig ditches for my business if I threw in some incentive like beer, or said it was for charity; however, if someone got hurt digging those ditches, I could be in for a world of hurt.   Mr. Wieckowski has worked for government most of his working life so I don&#8217;t expect he&#8217;d know how to set up and operate businesses.  Raffles aren&#8217;t illegal in California.  The non-profit must register with the Attorney General&#8217;s specific office that covers that, and &#8220;90 percent of the gross receipts from these raffles go directly to beneficial or charitable purposes in California.&#8221;   Any alcohol in the raffle may have rules too (can&#8217;t give to minors).   <a href="http://oag.ca.gov/charities/raffles" rel="nofollow ugc">http://oag.ca.gov/charities/raffles</a></p>
<p>Small biz owners everywhere benefit from educating ourselves and each other.   All the best to the winery/owner in any event.</p>
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