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	<title>
	Comments on: Ken White on faulty speech tropes	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 28 Aug 2019 19:28:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: cc		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355794</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=73525#comment-355794</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The most extreme danger comes when companies like Twitter or Youtube (google) decide that Republican candidates are promoting hate speech with their ads and won&#039;t run them. Or when Mitch McConnell has a violent mob outside his home and his video of that mob is taken down. When Youtube censors fighting robots under &quot;animal cruelty&quot; it just further shows how idiotic the criteria are for censorship.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most extreme danger comes when companies like Twitter or Youtube (google) decide that Republican candidates are promoting hate speech with their ads and won&#8217;t run them. Or when Mitch McConnell has a violent mob outside his home and his video of that mob is taken down. When Youtube censors fighting robots under &#8220;animal cruelty&#8221; it just further shows how idiotic the criteria are for censorship.</p>
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		<title>
		By: RLG		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355785</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RLG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2019 20:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=73525#comment-355785</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355781&quot;&gt;SPO&lt;/a&gt;.

SPO, I agree with your assessment.  Censorship doesn&#039;t have to be governmental to be censorship.  Parents censor children.  Television networks employ teams of censors, for their own product.  Social media platforms censor content on their sites.  These are all within the normal English usage of the word censor.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355781">SPO</a>.</p>
<p>SPO, I agree with your assessment.  Censorship doesn&#8217;t have to be governmental to be censorship.  Parents censor children.  Television networks employ teams of censors, for their own product.  Social media platforms censor content on their sites.  These are all within the normal English usage of the word censor.</p>
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		<title>
		By: SPO		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355781</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SPO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2019 17:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=73525#comment-355781</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355778&quot;&gt;Walter Olson&lt;/a&gt;.

I don&#039;t think that &quot;censorship&quot; only refers to governmental action.  A private university does censor, even though it is not a government actor, and how do you deal with private university speech suppression that violates law (e.g., Title IX)?  

I think you would just add &quot;official&quot; to &quot;censorship&quot;--also, there is another element--obviously, the First Amendment has a cultural element.  What Joaquin Castro did, while not violative of the First Amendment, is antithetical to the spirit of the First Amendment---particularly since one of his goals is clearly pour encourager les autres.  

Joaquin Castro is a censor.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355778">Walter Olson</a>.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that &#8220;censorship&#8221; only refers to governmental action.  A private university does censor, even though it is not a government actor, and how do you deal with private university speech suppression that violates law (e.g., Title IX)?  </p>
<p>I think you would just add &#8220;official&#8221; to &#8220;censorship&#8221;&#8211;also, there is another element&#8211;obviously, the First Amendment has a cultural element.  What Joaquin Castro did, while not violative of the First Amendment, is antithetical to the spirit of the First Amendment&#8212;particularly since one of his goals is clearly pour encourager les autres.  </p>
<p>Joaquin Castro is a censor.</p>
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		<title>
		By: SPO		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355780</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SPO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2019 14:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=73525#comment-355780</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[“This speech isn’t protected, because you can’t shout ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theater.&quot;

The statement is true---it&#039;s just misapplied.  Obviously, raising a a false alarm to cause immediate panic in people who have no ability to assess the validity of the alarm  is actionable.  

“Fighting words are not free speech.” You can&#039;t walk up to someone and call them the &quot;n-word&quot; and claim free speech.  

But when people use these narrow things to try to block speech, or worse yet, arrest people for it, it is sickening.  At the end of the day, when someone is arrested for the exercise of free speech, we lawyers can say &quot;the system worked&quot; when the courts ultimately get it right--but that&#039;s really not true.  And we know it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“This speech isn’t protected, because you can’t shout ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theater.&#8221;</p>
<p>The statement is true&#8212;it&#8217;s just misapplied.  Obviously, raising a a false alarm to cause immediate panic in people who have no ability to assess the validity of the alarm  is actionable.  </p>
<p>“Fighting words are not free speech.” You can&#8217;t walk up to someone and call them the &#8220;n-word&#8221; and claim free speech.  </p>
<p>But when people use these narrow things to try to block speech, or worse yet, arrest people for it, it is sickening.  At the end of the day, when someone is arrested for the exercise of free speech, we lawyers can say &#8220;the system worked&#8221; when the courts ultimately get it right&#8211;but that&#8217;s really not true.  And we know it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter Olson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355778</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Olson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2019 12:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=73525#comment-355778</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355777&quot;&gt;Parkhorse&lt;/a&gt;.

Ken White&#039;s omission of that argument is very likely due to his disagreeing with you about it. He has repeatedly held the public/private actor distinction to be vital not just legally in setting the bounds of what the Constitution restrains, but also ethically. It is often commendable, in his view, for private organizations to refuse to let themselves be used to disseminate certain types of vicious messages. I can&#039;t disagree with him on the principle of that, although I have more than once disagreed with his evaluation of how the principle plays out with respect to particular actors and institutions.

All of which is good reason not to use the term &quot;censorship&quot; when referring to Twitter terms of service, private university rules on clubs and speakers, and other controversies when not involving government action or pressure.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355777">Parkhorse</a>.</p>
<p>Ken White&#8217;s omission of that argument is very likely due to his disagreeing with you about it. He has repeatedly held the public/private actor distinction to be vital not just legally in setting the bounds of what the Constitution restrains, but also ethically. It is often commendable, in his view, for private organizations to refuse to let themselves be used to disseminate certain types of vicious messages. I can&#8217;t disagree with him on the principle of that, although I have more than once disagreed with his evaluation of how the principle plays out with respect to particular actors and institutions.</p>
<p>All of which is good reason not to use the term &#8220;censorship&#8221; when referring to Twitter terms of service, private university rules on clubs and speakers, and other controversies when not involving government action or pressure.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Parkhorse		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2019/08/ken-white-on-faulty-speech-tropes/comment-page-1/#comment-355777</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Parkhorse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=73525#comment-355777</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A common, tangentially related argument that wasn&#039;t listed was &quot;the First Amendment doesn&#039;t protect against actions by private corporations/universities/etc.&quot; Which, regardless of the degree to which that is true, is usually also irrelevant, as it tends to be used as a counter to people broadly arguing against censorship as a general, societal ill. &quot;Free speech&quot; is &lt;I&gt;both&lt;/I&gt; a legal doctrine &lt;I&gt;and&lt;/I&gt; an ethical assertion, and defenders of censorship by Twitter/Youtube/private university administrations/etc. willfully conflate the two.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A common, tangentially related argument that wasn&#8217;t listed was &#8220;the First Amendment doesn&#8217;t protect against actions by private corporations/universities/etc.&#8221; Which, regardless of the degree to which that is true, is usually also irrelevant, as it tends to be used as a counter to people broadly arguing against censorship as a general, societal ill. &#8220;Free speech&#8221; is <i>both</i> a legal doctrine <i>and</i> an ethical assertion, and defenders of censorship by Twitter/Youtube/private university administrations/etc. willfully conflate the two.</p>
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