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	<title>
	Comments on: &#8220;Are the Lockdown Orders Constitutional?&#8221;	</title>
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	<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/</link>
	<description>Chronicling the high cost of our legal system</description>
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		<title>
		By: SPO		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359457</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SPO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2020 16:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359457</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359449&quot;&gt;Walter Olson&lt;/a&gt;.

Hasn&#039;t that ship sailed already?  Courts are already in the business of scrutinizing deprivation of rights. And now, with wholesale deprivations of the right to travel, the right to associate etc., deference is the order of the day?  That smacks of situational law.  

A ban on gun sales, but allowing a peeps factory to keep going is simply not rational. And the question of motives must come into play.  And once the motives are something other than public health, the whole thing crashes down.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359449">Walter Olson</a>.</p>
<p>Hasn&#8217;t that ship sailed already?  Courts are already in the business of scrutinizing deprivation of rights. And now, with wholesale deprivations of the right to travel, the right to associate etc., deference is the order of the day?  That smacks of situational law.  </p>
<p>A ban on gun sales, but allowing a peeps factory to keep going is simply not rational. And the question of motives must come into play.  And once the motives are something other than public health, the whole thing crashes down.</p>
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		<title>
		By: En Passant		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359456</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[En Passant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2020 16:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359456</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for the &quot;explainer&quot; article. The state of the law, which you document well in the article, will not please those with libertarian inclinations. I account myself as having such inclinations. But I also recall the necessity of quarantines, by living through times of smaller and local quarantines.

Polio, Diptheria, Measles, and Mumps were among the childhood and even adult scourges within the lifetime of many of us. Those disease could, and often did, cause death or serious lifetime injury. Vaccines now make them very rare.

I recall as a child that many spring and summer months became &quot;polio season&quot;. If a case occurred anywhere, nearby counties and towns prohibited or drastically curtailed many activities such as sports events, swimming pools and theatres; some dismissed schools for a few weeks.

Those largely local shutdowns were only rarely violated. I think that is primarily because people found the disease more dangerous than the economic impact of the quarantine measures.

Our parents&#039; generation lived through the epidemic &quot;Spanish &#039;Flu&quot; circa 1918. Quarantines saved many lives then as well.

My takeaway from your article is that current (and historical) law provides few  or no limitations on the measures dictated by the executive branch of federal, state or local governments issuing quarantine orders. Personal experience of local quarantines long ago by many of us certainly reflects that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the &#8220;explainer&#8221; article. The state of the law, which you document well in the article, will not please those with libertarian inclinations. I account myself as having such inclinations. But I also recall the necessity of quarantines, by living through times of smaller and local quarantines.</p>
<p>Polio, Diptheria, Measles, and Mumps were among the childhood and even adult scourges within the lifetime of many of us. Those disease could, and often did, cause death or serious lifetime injury. Vaccines now make them very rare.</p>
<p>I recall as a child that many spring and summer months became &#8220;polio season&#8221;. If a case occurred anywhere, nearby counties and towns prohibited or drastically curtailed many activities such as sports events, swimming pools and theatres; some dismissed schools for a few weeks.</p>
<p>Those largely local shutdowns were only rarely violated. I think that is primarily because people found the disease more dangerous than the economic impact of the quarantine measures.</p>
<p>Our parents&#8217; generation lived through the epidemic &#8220;Spanish &#8216;Flu&#8221; circa 1918. Quarantines saved many lives then as well.</p>
<p>My takeaway from your article is that current (and historical) law provides few  or no limitations on the measures dictated by the executive branch of federal, state or local governments issuing quarantine orders. Personal experience of local quarantines long ago by many of us certainly reflects that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Cloudesley Shovell		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359450</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cloudesley Shovell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2020 01:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359450</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359449&quot;&gt;Walter Olson&lt;/a&gt;.

Good sir: 

 I&#039;m thinking out loud.  I don&#039;t know this area of law.  Such a level of scrutiny is easier applied as a matter of state constitutional law (or amendment) or statute.  I am calling more for the way things ought to be because I am bitterly disappointed with the way things stand now.

Kind regards,
CS]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359449">Walter Olson</a>.</p>
<p>Good sir: </p>
<p> I&#8217;m thinking out loud.  I don&#8217;t know this area of law.  Such a level of scrutiny is easier applied as a matter of state constitutional law (or amendment) or statute.  I am calling more for the way things ought to be because I am bitterly disappointed with the way things stand now.</p>
<p>Kind regards,<br />
CS</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter Olson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359449</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Olson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2020 19:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359449</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359447&quot;&gt;Cloudesley Shovell&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;One ... may insist&quot; that courts apply some measure of strict scrutiny. And yet if this is not something courts currently do apply, or ever have applied through American history back to and before the Founding, then one is making a case for developing a new constitutional law different from the one we have. Maybe that&#039;s a good idea! But if so it should be couched as something new and considered as such.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359447">Cloudesley Shovell</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;One &#8230; may insist&#8221; that courts apply some measure of strict scrutiny. And yet if this is not something courts currently do apply, or ever have applied through American history back to and before the Founding, then one is making a case for developing a new constitutional law different from the one we have. Maybe that&#8217;s a good idea! But if so it should be couched as something new and considered as such.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter Olson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359448</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Olson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2020 19:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359448</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359446&quot;&gt;jimc5499&lt;/a&gt;.

I don&#039;t say anything in my article about the class of challenges that say a governor or mayor has overstepped the terms of the statute laying out emergency powers. (To name one example, a lawmaker in downstate Illinois has won a ruling at an early stage on such a claim.) These are decided under statutory, not constitutional, law and the usual deference that judges fall back on in public health emergencies may not apply: if the governor doesn&#039;t have the power in the first place, he loses.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359446">jimc5499</a>.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t say anything in my article about the class of challenges that say a governor or mayor has overstepped the terms of the statute laying out emergency powers. (To name one example, a lawmaker in downstate Illinois has won a ruling at an early stage on such a claim.) These are decided under statutory, not constitutional, law and the usual deference that judges fall back on in public health emergencies may not apply: if the governor doesn&#8217;t have the power in the first place, he loses.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Cloudesley Shovell		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359447</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cloudesley Shovell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2020 19:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359447</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One can simultaneously acknowledge a state&#039;s power to take appropriate measures in the face of a pandemic and also insist that those measures meet some measure of rather strict scrutiny on both a facial and as-applied basis.  I think the situation we have now is overly deferential to the whims of individual state governors with a complete abdication of legislative oversight (will Michigan&#039;s legislature be stirred to action?  I hope so but think not) and not much judicial oversight that I have seen.

Another problem is the enormous wreckage inflicted on the economy on sometimes rather shaky grounds, and the mostly unsupportable distinction between allegedly essential and non-essential economic activity.  The virus knows no such boundaries.  Appropriate measures for a grocery store or a dry cleaner or a liquor store or a gas station/convenience store will work equally well in any other location.  Same goes for essential/non-essential medical procedures, while exempting abortion, which has nothing to do with any public health concern and everything to do with politics.

Modoc County in California, on the Oregon border, is an example.  What may be appropriate for San Fransisco or LA County is ridiculous as applied to a rural county with zero cases.  I think it would be completely appropriate for a judge reviewing such state-wide blanket rules to find constitutional problems as applied to particular areas.  Same with Michigan.  The Upper Peninsula is not metro Detroit.

Kind regards,
CS]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One can simultaneously acknowledge a state&#8217;s power to take appropriate measures in the face of a pandemic and also insist that those measures meet some measure of rather strict scrutiny on both a facial and as-applied basis.  I think the situation we have now is overly deferential to the whims of individual state governors with a complete abdication of legislative oversight (will Michigan&#8217;s legislature be stirred to action?  I hope so but think not) and not much judicial oversight that I have seen.</p>
<p>Another problem is the enormous wreckage inflicted on the economy on sometimes rather shaky grounds, and the mostly unsupportable distinction between allegedly essential and non-essential economic activity.  The virus knows no such boundaries.  Appropriate measures for a grocery store or a dry cleaner or a liquor store or a gas station/convenience store will work equally well in any other location.  Same goes for essential/non-essential medical procedures, while exempting abortion, which has nothing to do with any public health concern and everything to do with politics.</p>
<p>Modoc County in California, on the Oregon border, is an example.  What may be appropriate for San Fransisco or LA County is ridiculous as applied to a rural county with zero cases.  I think it would be completely appropriate for a judge reviewing such state-wide blanket rules to find constitutional problems as applied to particular areas.  Same with Michigan.  The Upper Peninsula is not metro Detroit.</p>
<p>Kind regards,<br />
CS</p>
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		<title>
		By: jimc5499		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359446</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jimc5499]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2020 18:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359446</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Funny you mentioned Pennsylvania.  From what I understand the Governor is allowed to order a &quot;state of emergency&quot; that gives him the power to act.  That &#039;state of emergency&quot; and his powers only lasts 30 days,then the Legislature has to vote to extend those powers.  That isn&#039;t happening.  The Governor is ignoring the Legislature.  The same thing is happening in Michigan.  Pennsylvania&#039;s &#039;state of emergency&quot; started March 16th.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny you mentioned Pennsylvania.  From what I understand the Governor is allowed to order a &#8220;state of emergency&#8221; that gives him the power to act.  That &#8216;state of emergency&#8221; and his powers only lasts 30 days,then the Legislature has to vote to extend those powers.  That isn&#8217;t happening.  The Governor is ignoring the Legislature.  The same thing is happening in Michigan.  Pennsylvania&#8217;s &#8216;state of emergency&#8221; started March 16th.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter Olson		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359444</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Olson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2020 17:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359444</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for identifying the subject matter of my little essay as never really interesting, Ray! Let me propose a division of labor between the two of us: you write on topics you consider interesting, and I&#039;ll go on writing on ones I consider interesting.  

All the best, 
Site editor]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for identifying the subject matter of my little essay as never really interesting, Ray! Let me propose a division of labor between the two of us: you write on topics you consider interesting, and I&#8217;ll go on writing on ones I consider interesting.  </p>
<p>All the best,<br />
Site editor</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray		</title>
		<link>https://www.overlawyered.com/2020/05/are-the-lockdown-orders-constitutional/comment-page-1/#comment-359443</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2020 16:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.overlawyered.com/?p=74128#comment-359443</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This question is no longer the interesting one, and never really was.  What we need analysis on by the legal community is the legality of ongoing lockdown orders in the face of clear data that the threat has passed (data that is higher quality than that which led us to the lockdowns to begin with), and the scenarios where governors continue to extend executive power ad infinitum.  What avenues for relief and oversight to citizens have then?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This question is no longer the interesting one, and never really was.  What we need analysis on by the legal community is the legality of ongoing lockdown orders in the face of clear data that the threat has passed (data that is higher quality than that which led us to the lockdowns to begin with), and the scenarios where governors continue to extend executive power ad infinitum.  What avenues for relief and oversight to citizens have then?</p>
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